Diamond Defense Podcast
Diamond Defense Podcast shares real stories and practical strategies to help women protect themselves, trust their instincts, and stand strong in any situation.
Diamond Defense Podcast
Diamond Defense Podcast: Ep. 08 – Coercive Control Relationships
Content Warning: This episode includes personal accounts of coercive control, emotional abuse, intimidation, and fear within a relationship.
Understand coercive control relationships and the quiet patterns of emotional abuse hiding in plain sight. This episode explores some of the hidden patterns of emotional and psychological abuse, why they’re so hard to recognize, and how awareness can become a path back to safety.
Self-defense instructor Lisa sits down with Karin, a survivor of a long-term coercive control relationship, for a deeply honest, illuminating conversation. Together, they unpack how control took root, how it escalated over time, and how Karin ultimately found her way out.
This is not a sensational story. It’s a listening story — one meant to give language to experiences many people feel but struggle to name.
Whether you’re questioning a relationship, supporting someone you love, or seeking to understand the quieter forms of abuse that often go unseen, this episode offers insight, validation, and a reminder: control is not love — and safety is possible.
Self Defense Resources
- Diamond Defense
https://diamonddefense.com/resources - Domestic Violence Hotline (in the United States)
1-800-799-SAFE (1-800-799-7233)
thehotline.org - Relationships Australia Victoria RAV — What is Coercive Control? (Article)
https://www.relationshipsvictoria.org.au/news/what-is-coercive-control/
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💎Have a story you want to share on the podcast? Email us at DiamondDefensePodcast@gmail.com
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Show Notes
Co-Host and Co-Producer: Lisa
Co-Host and Co-Producer: Kellie
Special Thanks
Ann Cobb, Kelley Ogden, Karin
Music
Music courtesy of Melodie Music.
Melodie Music Subscription: Pro Plan, Lifetime
Title: Fighter; Artist: Christy Panchal Composers: Klotz Christina Elyse Panchal (ASCAP: 1020882000) 50%, Carrozza Gregory Joseph (BMI: 00528390441) 50%
https://melod.ie/track-details/3300-fighter
Title: A Change in the Weather Artist: Cookie Cartel Composers: Ancheta Mary Beth (SOCAN: 263187068) 50%, Kearley Dan William (SOCAN: 441100030) 50%
https://melod.ie/track-details/2443-a-change-in-the-weather
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Kellie: Before we get started, we want to let you know that this episode includes descriptions of coercive control, emotional and psychological abuse, and moments of intimidation and fear. These parts of the story can be difficult to hear, so please take care of yourself and listen in whatever way feels safest and most supportive for you.
Theme Music: I am a fighter. Checking my armor. I'm marching onward. Hey Hey. I am a fighter…
Karin: Hi, my name's Karin. I've been in a co... coercive control relationship for the past nine years. I've been out for the last eight-ish months, and yeah, my life is so much better now.
Kellie: Welcome back to the Diamond Defense Podcast. I am Kellie. I'm a theater artist who believes in the power of storytelling, so that's why I'm doing this podcast with my cohort and friend Lisa.
Lisa: And I'm Lisa, a 20-year woman self-defense instructor, having a great time with my friend Kellie. Uh, sharing the stories and talking about all the different ways that we can help keep ourselves safer out there.
Kellie: Yeah, and listeners, before we dive in, we wanna let you know that today's episode includes a very deeply personal story, and honestly, that's what this podcast is built on. That's why Lisa and I started doing this —storytelling, truth telling and discovering our paths to safety. One lived experience at a time. You'll hear our usual call to action at the end, so stay tuned for that. But we wanted to pause here at the top and speak directly with you. We make the show because every woman's safety matters. Yours, mine, the next woman listening on her lunch break or late at night on the way home or wherever you are. And we really do believe one of the strongest ways we protect each other is by sharing what we know. So please, if this episode resonates with you, pass it along to someone in your circle who might need it.
Kellie: And if you have a story of your own, something you've learned, something you do to stay safe or something you've lived through, we would be honored to hear it. You can share openly or anonymously. Our email address is in the show notes and we'll mention it later. And we are building this community one truth at a time, and you are a part of that. And Lisa, let's dive in. What are we doing today? What are we talking about?
Lisa: Well, today we are so fortunate to be able to speak with a woman named Karin. She is a coercive control relationship survivor. So, we are gonna talk about all the different aspects of coercive control relationships. We're gonna go over the 12 signs of coercive control, um, in an effort to just sort of make sure that if anyone is involved in, um, early on in a relationship like this, and they can sort of detect those signs to help keep themselves a little bit safer.
Lisa: Um, if, if someone is in a relationship like this, we can talk about ways to cope. And then we're gonna talk about how Karin got out of that relationship and how she is thriving now. And, um, yeah. So, we're gonna get into what coercive control relationships look like. Before we do that, and I know we wanna leave a lot of time and space for our discussion with Karin today, but I had to tell a really quick story.
Kellie: Okay. I love story time.
Lisa: Um, it just relates to our last episode. So for anybody who listened to that, um, if you remember when I was talking about, uh, reality-based self-defense programs, um, like the one that I teach and I talked about how there are pockets of people, schools of thought out there that... that don't believe in what we do, that think that the only way for a woman to physically protect herself is either through a firearm, through a knife, or through becoming an extremely skilled martial artist.
Kellie: Okay.
Lisa: And I... like I said last time, I get it. I honor their experience. I... I don't agree with that. Um, as we talked about, I think any knowledge is good knowledge. Knowing how to break a wrist grab or a choke hold, uh, I think are important things, even if you aren't able to execute a spinning high kick. Okay.
Lisa: So, I have a student, she's one of my best students, and she came to me for physical defense training. And as we were kind of finishing that up, we were talking, this was several months ago. Uh, and she was talking about the ways in which she's tried to keep herself safe before. And one of the things that she talked about was having a firearm.
Lisa: And I, you know, I'm a gun owner, um, so I got no problem with that. Uh, if you know how to use a firearm, I got no problem with that. And unfortunately, she was in the place where she had purchased a firearm and she did not know how to use it, and she had no training on it, and she had never fired it. And so, I... I gave her the name of my favorite local firearms instructor, a really wonderful woman who is, um, just a, a truly one of the most incredible, uh, teachers that I've ever had the... the pleasure of being in their class.
Lisa: And, um, and I said to, you know, get training immediately. If you're gonna have this firearm, if you're gonna carry, if you're gonna have this in your home and carry it, what have you, you gotta be trained on it. You gotta know how to use it. And so, I gave her this information. I sent her off. I didn't talk to her for a few months, and she came back to do one of our practice classes.
Lisa: And she said, you know, I went out and I, um, and I decided to get firearms training. And I said, oh, did you, you know, did you connect with the, the person I told you about? And she said, no, there was a place that was closer to my home. And so, I went ahead and went there, and I've been working with this guy, uh, instructor and she said, you know, I was working on my stance. We were going... going over the... the firing stance and I was having a tr... having a little trouble sort of code switching between my physical defense and having a firearm. And so, you know, when I would get into my stance, my body would kind of automatically go into my physical defense stance, because that's what I've been training on.
Lisa: And, you know, and I told the... the gentleman, I said, you know, I am sorry, I'm just, I'm trying to code switch right now between, you know, getting myself used to being in a firearm stance as opposed to my physical defense stance... defensive stance. And uh, and he said to her, show me, show me your stance. And she said, uh, you know, okay, uh, you know, I know we're not kinda supposed to do this, but he's an instructor too.
Lisa: And so, you know, so I went ahead and I got into my defensive stance, and he said to me, oh, that's no good. All I have to do is this. And he came over and he acted like he was gonna trip me.
Kellie: Hmm.
Lisa: And I said, wow. Um, that's disturbing and troubling, and the fact that he thought that you would just allow him to get that close in a real-life scenario is the reason that we don't do at-home demonstrations of this stuff.
Lisa: Because the, the tactics that we learn, the techniques that we learned work mostly on two because... of two different elements. And those elements are number one, a hundred percent force. If you're executing one of these techniques on somebody, you are willing to inflict serious bodily injury. Number two is the element of surprise.
Lisa: So, you're not gonna broadcast to somebody, hey, I've got some moves. You better watch out before you execute a move on them, right? You're using that element of surprise. They're not expecting what you are about to deliver. Now both of those things are lost with a demonstration like that. When he moved towards her, she could have... she could have executed a knee strike. She could have done a sweep kick; she could have gouged his eye. She could have hooked his clavicle notch. She could have done any number of things to keep him from getting close enough to her to trip her. But she didn't do that. Why? Because he was a teacher and someone she was not intending to inflict serious bodily injury on.
Lisa: So, he just proved to her in that moment why we don't do at-home demonstrations like that. And also, uh, told her that what she needed to do was go take a blades course, that instead of learning physical defense, she should go learn how to use knives. And this is a woman in her 60s.
Kellie: So, he mansplained personal safety to her?
Lisa: Yes.
Kellie: Okay.
Lisa: And what he took the chance of doing was basically mindfucking her. And thank God she is a strong personality and a incredibly smart and savvy woman. And she knew what was happening. And so that's why when she came back to me the week later, she told me this story and explained to me that, yeah, I know I would not have let him get that close.
Lisa: And so, you know, I'm okay, but I hate that he might be talking to other women like this. And so, I'm still a little infuriated by the story. I don't know why someone would want to mess with somebody like that who was out there trying to do the things that she needs to do to try and keep herself safe as a woman in her 60s who lives in an urban area. Um, but he did, and it makes you mad. And I guess I just needed to vent about that a little bit.
Kellie: Hey, this is a space for safety and venting.
Lisa: Thank you. Yeah.
Kellie: You know, I think if... if we want women to listen to this podcast for sure. But honestly, if us women could share this with our men allies, they could be better educated about safety in women's spaces and women bodies and all of the conventions that go around that. And maybe stuff like that would happen less, I don't think it'll be eradicated completely because humans and men and, you know the world.
Lisa: Yeah. And to have just a little bit of respect, um, to know that, you know, we should be doing things to pump women up. He should have, he should have, what he should have done was said to her, I think that's great that you are taking some physical defense and firearm defense and learning these things to try and help keep yourself safer. But, uh, he... he couldn't do that. And that's just unfortunate. Thank God she's a badass and she didn't fall victim to it.
Kellie: Good for her. Good for being a badass. And that's a testament to your training that she's taken with you. And hey, guys, if you think you're being helpful, we are grateful for that. Just be comprehensive about, uh, the help that you're offering and think about the perspective of the woman in the space that they're in and the world they're walking through, and how that help might impact them positively or negatively.
Lisa: Thank you for that vent. Um, I needed to do that. I appreciate it. All right. Uh, so let's switch gears. Let's get into our episode for today. Like I said, we're gonna talk to Karin. And Karin is a con– coercive control relationship survivor, and we talk to her– we're gonna talk to her about all of the different aspects of how that showed up for her and her relationship, the effects that it had on her and her children, and the beauty of chocolate.
Kellie: You know, I am here for things that keep women and children safe. And when you add chocolate to it, I'm sold.
Lisa: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, uh, I think that there's not much more for me to say here. I think we're gonna talk to her for as long as it takes to go through all of the 12 steps of coercive control. And I think I'm gonna, we're gonna just let that, let that interview speak for itself. So, without further ado, let's talk to Karin.
Kellie: Before you step into Karin's story, take a breath. You're about to hear a woman trace the quiet beginnings of control, the slow dimming of her world, and the moment she finally recognized her own light again. As you listen, notice what may feel familiar for you or someone you know. The shift in a partner's tone, the boundary that once felt small and has widened into a canyon, the instinct you brushed aside. Her story is not just hers. It's a lens, a language, a lantern, a survival. Let it guide you toward understanding of yourself, of someone you love or of patterns you've never had words for. Here is Karin sharing her experience with Lisa.
Lisa: Right. Karin, thank you so much for being with us today. We are so grateful to have you here and to you for being willing to share your experience with us and share your story.
Lisa: Um, you know, we are all about women helping other women stay safe and so it's an honor to be able to have someone here like you, who I think has a story that can help other women learn some things in order to keep themselves potentially out of a dangerous situation. Um, learn some things about how to cope if they are currently in that situation. Um, and then learn some things about how to get out of that situation, um, if they are currently in that. Um, so, so we just wanna welcome you and thank you, um, for your time and, uh, your sharing today.
Karin: Thanks for having me. I'm excited. Nervous.
Lisa: Well, we're super excited to talk to you. Um, so I think I just wanna start by letting you sort of just tell us what your, um, background is in terms of, as much as you're comfortable with, um, uh, how sort of you came into, like where you were at in your life when you came into this relationship. Um, yeah. So just tell us a little bit about how that started.
Karin: Okay. So, I grew up with a narcissistic father, um, which sort of shaped I think how I viewed relationships from like a very early age, um, which led me to end up in a few toxic relationships. Um. Yeah, so, I've had physical abuse in a couple of the relationships previous to the last one. Um, but the last one was definitely the worst. It got very controlling, um, yeah. And very limiting on what I was allowed to do.
Lisa: That's really good perspective to share, I think, in terms of just being in a, a place, being a person who maybe was a little more vulnerable.
Karin: Yeah. Sort of unaware that yeah. What a healthy relationship looked like.
Lisa: Okay. Okay. Now I came across this just sort of brilliant thing put out by, I guess it's called, um, Relationships Australia VIC. Relationships Australia Victoria, I think is the name of the organization. Um, and they have a wonderful website with lots of great resources. And one of those resources, uh, lists the 12 signs of coercive control. So, um, from what I understand, your, your last relationship was a coercive control relationship.
Karin: Yes.
Lisa: Um, and I thought maybe it would be worth just sort of going over these things if I... if I can sort of take each, each one.
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: And we can kind of talk, talk through it and say, was this a, an aspect of that relationship for you and, and how did that show up and what did that look like for you in the relationship?
Karin: Yeah, definitely.
Lisa: Okay. That would be awesome. All right, so let me get into here. Okay. So. Uh, first of all, I don't wanna skip over who you are as a person. Is there anything you would like to tell us about yourself? Um, what you do, your hobbies, the things you enjoy in life, anything like that?
Karin: Um, I am currently a stay-at-home mom. I've got two little ones still at home. I've got seven children all up. Um–
Lisa: Wow. That is quite a brood.
Karin: Quite busy. Um, I was not allowed to have many hobbies during my last relationship. So, I am slowly starting to, yeah, find some hobbies again. Um, reading is a big one. I used to play a lot of sport. Um, I started back, um, exercising again, going, I'm not at a gym yet, but I wanna go back to the gym. Um, I was not allowed to be at a gym whilst I was with him.
Lisa: Wow.
Karin: So, yeah.
Lisa: So, you're starting to kind of explore that?
Karin: Almost like starting over again. Yeah. Trying to, yeah.
Lisa: Finding those things that bring you joy and yeah, yeah.
Karin: Yeah. And getting back out and yeah. Sort of rejoining the world.
Lisa: I love that. I'm so... I'm so happy for you that that is your current reality. Yes.
Karin: Yeah, it is. It's good.
Lisa: Yes. Alright, great. So, um, so let's hop into these 12 signs of coercive control. I think it's worth going through these. I think that, um, as I understand it. There was a point at which you weren't sure if what was happening in your relationship was normal or not.
Karin: Yeah, that's correct. I had no idea what coercive control was until like... towards the end of the relationship. So yeah, it was a lot of questions of working out whether or not it was even abuse that he was doing or if it was normal in a relationship to, you know, to be going through that stuff.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. I'm, and I know you're not alone and I know that there are probably tons of, um, women unfortunately out there who are, who are going through the same thing. Um, and so I think if, if we can kind of identify these 12 signs, um, and then maybe someone who is dealing with one or more of these can recognize that.
Karin: Yeah. It was definitely a big first step to start actually looking it up and seeing that it was something that's not normal and I shouldn't have to put up with that in a relationship. That was a big first step I think, for me, need to get out.
Lisa: And that takes a lot of strength to just get to that point. So, I just wanna acknowledge you for that and um, applaud you for doing what you needed to do for yourself and for your children.
Karin: Thank you.
Lisa: Of course. Of course. So, let's start with the very first one, which in my experience in speaking with survivors tends to be the first one that... that occurs in the relationship, which is isolating you from your support system.
Karin: Yeah, he did not like any of my friends. He never had anything good to say about them. Um, you know, felt that they were bad influences on my life, you know, that I could be– do so much better if I didn't listen to them or I didn't, you know, spend time with them. Um, he got angry if I was, you know, with them too often, if I defended anything that we'd like, you know, that they'd said that he would get quite angry to the point where, yeah, it got really, really hard to be able to continue talking to any of my friends.
Lisa: And did that start early on in the relationship?
Karin: That did start, yeah, fairly early on. He wouldn't, he hadn't even met any of them at that point, I think. But he would still sort of, if I'd spent too much time with them, was like, oh, you know, you're going out with your friends too much. Why do you need to be out going for a drink?
Karin: You know, you have me now. You don't need to be out at the pubs. Or, or, you know, um, or if, you know, they'd, we'd done something, he would say that that was not appropriate and that they were bringing me down or, you know, it was sort of things that would make you think that, oh, he's looking out for me. He's trying to, you know, he cares.
Karin: He wants to spend time with me. He, you know, is concerned that maybe they're, you know, something that they've done is a bad influence on me and he wants better. He... he... he would sort of phrase it as a, I want better for you.
Lisa: I'm protecting you. Yeah.
Karin: Yes.
Lisa: Yeah. Was there a point at which, um, your friends noticed that?
Karin: Yeah, a couple of them did, and a couple of them did say things to me, but then it would sort of cause conflicts because I was, you know, thinking he was sort of, you know, this good guy and he was trying to protect me and, you know, so I didn't wanna listen necessarily at the start. Um. We sort of ended up falling out. I fell out with one of my friends. I didn't, I like, I stopped speaking to her altogether 'cause she got quite aggressive in her opinions.
Lisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Karin: Which made that quite, yeah, quite hard.
Lisa: Well, yeah. When, when you're in that relationship, but you can't maintain both.
Karin: Yeah, no, definitely not.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: And, you know, he's sort of having to choose and so yeah, it, it made it really hard, and I ended up cutting contact. We ended up cutting contact.
Lisa: Have you since reconnected with her at all?
Karin: I have not. I don't know where she is. He had me, I think at one point, changed my phone number. So, um, a lot of people who I may not see on a regular basis, sort of lost contact with them because I, they couldn't reach out anymore. Um, yeah, so all my contacts, uh, he broke my phone, so I didn't have contacts and then changed my phone number, so.
Lisa: Wow. Completely cut you off. Totally isolated you.
Karin: Yeah, I think that was about 18 months in. He completely cut me off from, pretty much, yeah, everyone.
Lisa: You said, you said eight months in?
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: Wow. Wow. Okay. All right. Did he, number two, monitor your activity throughout the day?
Karin: Yes, definitely did. He didn't do it to start with, but it would be messages checking in, you know, oh, hey, what are you doing? What are you up to? It was, so, it was like little things like that, which you don't sort of think about. Um, but then if I said I was, you know, I'd been to the gym that day, he would get a bit funny about it. He didn't like the fact that I'd been at the gym, you know, because there were men, other men there.
Karin: Um. And, and it just escalated. It got to the point where he wanted to put a tracking app on my phone. So, I had an app on my phone that he could check and see where I was at any given time. If I went somewhere he didn't think I should be at, I would get a message or a phone call. Why are you there? What are you doing?
Karin: Um, yeah. It got to the point where he was monitoring everything. I think, uh, a few years, a couple of years into it, I was taking photos of my speedometer on my car and I had to take that everywhere I went to show that I'd only driven here. I had to show him a photo of where I was, where I'd been, you know, this is how far I've driven. He got–
Lisa: Wow.
Karin: Yeah, like really bad. Getting into the relationship once he, I think he knew he could.
Lisa: Yeah. Once he'd been able to cross those boundaries–
Karin: Yes.
Lisa: Multiple times.
Karin: Yeah. So, it was a slow build up to, yeah, completely monitoring like everywhere I went. To the point where I didn't leave the house much at all because it was easier than having to explain why I was at the shops or what I'd done or.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Karin: Yeah. So it was, it was quite full on for a while.
Lisa: Wow. And so, and at that point, when that was happening, you were years into the relationship at this point?
Karin: Yeah. Two children in.
Lisa: Wow. Is this when it started to feel like maybe this isn't a normal thing?
Karin: At first, crazily enough? No, I, um, 'cause he had accused me of cheating and it was just, Okay, if I can show him that I'm only going here and I'm only going to the shops and I've got the children with me, you know, it'll, he'll, he'll calm down and he'll see that I'm not doing anything wrong. So, it became a sort of like, oh, if I can just do this. But it didn't, he, it just escalated.
Lisa: Right.
Karin: Um, and that's when it sort of went, I thought, this is never gonna stop. He's never gonna stop. He is just going to get more and more.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Like he put a camera up at the house to make sure he could see that I was home. Um, and then my phone had to go in front of the camera so that he knew I wasn't on my phone. Like he could see my phone was sitting there and I wasn't on there and I wasn't talking to anyone. And so, yeah, it sort of got to the point where I thought, this is never gonna stop.
Lisa: Wow.
Karin: He's just gonna get progressively more controlling.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: Wow. Okay. Um. Well, I think this covers, I think that covers number three as well, which is denying you freedom and autonomy. So, you didn't feel like an autonomous person that you had control over where you wanted to go, what you wanted to do, who you wanted to see?
Karin: No, I couldn't, yeah, without his permission. Almost if someone, like, if my family was the only one who's really texted me at that time, if they texted me, he, he wanted to see what they texted. Um, you know what? I replied to the point where I think in the end, he wanted to approve the messages I sent back to them to make sure that it was something that he was comfortable with me saying. Um, so yeah, it got quite controlling.
Lisa: There was no freedom at a certain point.
Karin: At all. No.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: It felt very, yeah, suffocating, I think.
Lisa: Yeah. And number four, and we've, I think you've already addressed this a little bit, but gaslighting.
Karin: Um, yeah.
Lisa: Lots of that, huh?
Karin: Lot of gaslighting. Yes. I was too sensitive if I ever sort of said that, you know, I think this is, you know, too much. I think that, you know, you're, you're trying to be too controlling or, um, I think I did use abusive a couple of times, and I was told I was being too sensitive. You know that this is a normal part of any relationship. Every relationship he knows, you know, of people, of all the people he knew in good relationships, this is all part of it. It was all normal, that they knew where every each other were all the time. And that, you know, they shared, you know, all their text message though he never really shared his text messages with me.
Lisa: Mm-hmm. Funny how that works. Yeah.
Karin: Yeah. So, it's definitely one set of rules for him, one set of rules for me. Um, so yeah, a lot of it I was crazy. I was too sensitive.
Lisa: Blowing things outta proportion. Yeah.
Karin: There was something wrong with me because I didn't, you know, think it was normal behavior.
Lisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Making you doubt your own truth.
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Honestly, thought I was, you know, sort of crazy.
Lisa: Mm-hmm.
Karin: At one point.
Lisa: Mm-hmm. That's how it works. Yeah, absolutely. How about things like name calling and severe criticism? That's number five.
Karin: Uh, yeah, we did have a lot of that same, it would start with small things about like my appearance a lot of the times. Um, I think I remember that at the start it would be at first, oh, I, you know, you shouldn't be ashamed of, you know, your stretch marks or, you know, you should, you know, love your body. It looks beautiful. I really like it to within a few months. Uh, but, you know, if you could just fix this if you could, you know, even I think like I had sideburns, I think, you know, if you just, you know, did that or your arms were a bit hairy, if you just shaved your arms, you would look better. Or if you just did this, you would look a little bit better.
Karin: I think your hair looks better, you know, when it's blonde, I don't like it when you've got it. This color. I think I put purple in my hair at one stage and he absolutely hated it. Um, so it was just like, it, it would just started off as just like little things to the point I think where in the end, I don't think there was anything he liked.
Lisa: Or at least that he didn't want you to think there was anything to like about yourself. Right? Yeah. And I think that's the insidious part of it is that you, uh, you're a beautiful woman and, and I'm sure you always were, and I'm sure he always felt that way, but he couldn't have you feel that way about yourself.
Karin: Yeah. Just sort of started so little and so innocent and then just, yeah, it just progressively got worse. The name calling got worse in the end because he would accuse me of cheating and sleeping around, so then I was getting called like a slut. Um, you know, and that was just common sort of everyday names that, yeah, quite derogatory names, when he was angry. Especially when he was angry.
Lisa: Yeah. And then you get desensitized to that, right?
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Karin: It was almost like a term of endearment in the end that, you know.
Lisa: Right. Oh my God. I am so glad you got outta this. Okay. Um, number six, limiting access to money and controlling finances.
Karin: He was not overly limiting in money. Um, he wasn't working for a lot of the time, so we didn't have a lot of money. Um, and I was on like, like welfare checks. So, it became my responsibility to pay for everything, um, to cover a lot of it. Even his drinking. It would... I was expected to find money for drinking, for him to be able to drink every weekend when we didn't really have the money for it, it didn't matter. You had to find it. If that meant giving up stuff for me, then so be it. Um, yeah. He would expect new outfits quite often out of my, like, you know, for me to pay for, but without him providing anything at all, he wasn't willing to, or if the money he had was for him to do what he wanted with.
Lisa: So, part of that, I think that happens in a lot of coercive control relationships, right? Is the idea that they have to control you because you are, you're their paycheck.
Karin: Yes. Yeah.
Lisa: Right. You are their access to money. Yeah.
Karin: Yeah. So as long as I had no money left at the end of the week to do anything other than provide for him mostly, and then the kids, then that was how he wanted it.
Lisa: Gotcha. Okay.
Karin: So yeah, money was a bit of an issue. I think he also took, I think there was one instance where we'd saved up money to go on a holiday, and then I had said no to him for something and he took all that money knowing that that would cancel the holiday, and that I would somehow have to try and figure that out for the kids because I wouldn't let them down, so.
Lisa: Wow. Wow.
Karin: He used it as, yeah, to control a lot, I think.
Lisa: Used your money to control you, which is...
Karin: Yes.
Lisa: Incredible. Okay. All right. Number seven is coercing you to take care of all of the domestic duties. Did you feel that?
Karin: Um, yes, definitely. Um, very misogynistic. It was definitely my place to do everything for the children. It was my place to make sure the house was clean all the time. Even getting up in the morning, he would be expect a coffee made for him every morning, even if he got up first. If he woke up first, he would wake me up to get him a coffee.
Lisa: Wow, okay.
Karin: So yeah, a lot of it was, yeah. He refused to change nappies for the... like first two years I think, of the, like the, the kids being like, I think towards the end he started to do it a little bit, but yeah, he was like, that's not, I won't do that. That's not my job.
Lisa: Wow. Those are your children, but I'm not going to change their diapers. Yeah. Yeah.
Karin: To him, that was disgusting and that's not his job. So, yeah, I did all of the raising of the children.
Lisa: Wow. Well, probably better for them in the long run.
Karin: Yes.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Um, speaking of children, so number eight, turning your children against you.
Karin: Um, he threatened it. I think he kind of knew that the children had quite a strong bond with me. 'Cause I'd done all the caregiving.
Lisa: Mm-hmm.
Karin: For them. But he always threatened that he would tell the children the truth one day. That he would tell them how I was horrible. I was the one who cheated on him. I was the one who, you know, took them away from him if I'd left. You know, so I think it was definitely, it, it's definitely something that plays in his mind that that was, that's something that he is wanting to do.
Lisa: He was using that wedge.
Karin: Yeah, if there's a fight, if there was a fight, he would flip the script to make it, you know, seem like it was my fault that the fight had started.
Lisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Karin: Um, so that the kids were sort of, you know, thinking that I was to blame for it. Um, luckily for the most part they didn't tend to believe it.
Lisa: Good.
Karin: ‘Cause he was also quite controlling of their behavior as well. So, like the kids had to dress how he wanted them to dress. They didn't have any autonomy in picking out their own outfits. Their hair had to be cut the way he wanted it to be cut. Um, to the point where I think one of my sons cried for a week after a haircut because it wasn't what he wanted, and dad didn't care that that's not what he wanted. Um, you know. Yeah. That very, very much that they, they represented him when they went out, they represented him, so they had to look exactly how he expected them to look.
Lisa: Wow. Classic narcissism.
Karin: Yes, definitely.
Lisa: Yeah. Wow. Wow. Um, well I hope your son is getting whatever haircut he wants now and enjoying that.
Karin: Very long, curly hair now and he loves it.
Lisa: That’s beautiful. And you get that purple. You get that purple.
Karin: I did have the purple for a while, so yeah. Might go back to that.
Lisa: Nice. I know Kellie has frequently been known to put a purple streak in. All right. Um, going into number nine, controlling, and we've kind of addressed this a little bit in some of the previous points, controlling aspects of your health and your body. Um, so controlling things like, like how much you eat, sleep, exercise, all of those sorts of things.
Karin: Yeah, definitely. Um, he was very big on fitness when we first started, which seemed like a really good thing. Um, but it was very much about, you know, um, how, how your body looked. He, there was a certain aesthetic that he liked, and he wanted it to, you know, to, for me to look like that. Um, he was done in a way of like, you know, I wanna help you, you know, just be your best and that, but then it was very much diet plans, you know, what– Oh. And then if you ate like a chocolate, like, oh, why are you eating that? You know, that's, you know, that's going against everything that you, you know, you're working towards. And it's like, it's one chocolate. I really want.
Lisa: We, we ladies need our chocolate. Okay.
Karin: Yes, very much a chocolate addict, so it was very hard to, um, not want to eat chocolate.
Lisa: Yes. You're, you're in good company here. Kellie and I are both as well. Yeah. Sorry.
Karin: Have to, it's too good.
Lisa: Yes.
Karin: Um, yeah, so it was just the little things like that to start with in the end. I think it was, yeah, it was a lot worse. Um. About what food we ate, what food I put in my body. Very critical of eating anything outside of what he considered to be healthy.
Lisa: And for the kids as well?
Karin: Um, yeah, he was, yeah, quite fussy about what they ate, what they drank. Um, it made it, um, mealtimes. Yeah. Difficult, quite difficult.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. And of course, I assume you did the cooking. He wasn't doing the cooking?
Karin: Uh, no, I did the cooking.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: I always did it wrong, but I did the cooking.
Lisa: I'm sure you did it wonderfully.
Karin: Yeah. I thought it tasted fine, but not as good as his mother apparently. So, yeah.
Lisa: Oh, oh, there it is.
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: There it is.
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: Okay. Um, all right, number 10. And definitely we've... we've, um, explored this a little bit already, but making jealous accusations about the time you spend with family or friends.
Karin: Uh, yes, definitely. He admitted very early on in the piece that he was jealous that he had like a bit of a jealous thing, but it was sort of more, I think... put out as you know, I'm just... I... you know, care about you. I wanna spend time with you. Other girlfriends have, you know, left me because of this. So, it sort of made me feel like, you know, I had to prove to him that it was, you know, that I understood his, you know, why he was jealous and I wasn't doing anything to make him jealous.
Karin: Like I wasn't running around talking to other people, you know? So, yeah, definitely. And that, and that continued throughout the whole relationship. That escalated to the point of that was his, um, go-to every time we had a fight, oh, you've cheated on me. There's another guy I know there is every time it, it, that was his way of flipping the script, I think, pretty much every time and–
Lisa: Mm-hmm.
Karin: Was that he knew if he accused me, I would defend myself. And then the whole argument would be, revolve around that.
Lisa: And then you're on the defense and he gets to be on the offense and then, yeah.
Karin: Yes. And then whatever was originally brought up has been tabled completely, never to be brought up again, and...
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Karin: I'm defending the fact that I'm not doing anything.
Lisa: And then he doesn't have to take responsibility for his own actions.
Karin: Yes. Yeah. So, he used the jealousy, uh, the whole way through.
Lisa: Yeah. All right. Number 11, and you may or may not answer this in any way, shape, or form that you want to regulating your sexual relationship.
Karin: Yes. He, I think at the start, he wasn't... it didn't seem like he was, but obviously like you're at the start of a relationship and it's all fresh and fun. Um, but he did make it known that being a man he had needs, um. I think at one point early on in the relationship, it was sort of joked around, but you know, I have needs, if you can't meet them, I'll have to go elsewhere. Um, so then it sort of put the pressure on if I'm not meeting his needs, you know.
Lisa: Wow.
Karin: He's gonna use, that's an acceptable reason for him to cheat, I guess, um, at the start. And then, yeah, it was very much on his terms, always on his terms, always when he wanted. It was– no was not an option. I think I had one night where I fell asleep early and he was up drinking and I should have known that he would, um, have his needs and, um, he came and punched me in the head to wake me up to... because he was disgusted that I'd gone to sleep. I think I went and laid down with my son and fell asleep. Um, and I should have not done that because I knew that he would need me awake at some point that night.
Lisa: I am so sorry that that happened to you, Karin. I'm so sorry.
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: My heart goes out to you.
Karin: Lesson in learning not to say no or not to be unavailable for him.
Lisa: Ugh. My heart goes out to you. Um, that's just heartbreaking to hear.
Karin: It is when I think back now, at the time it was sort of like almost normal.
Lisa: Yeah. 'Cause it had gotten to the point where he had completely normalized that, huh?
Karin: Yes. Yeah. So, at the time it wasn't even a thought of, yeah, this is not okay.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah.
Karin: But yeah, looking back now, I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I allowed that.
Lisa: Yeah. Well, you didn't have a lot of choice at the time.
Karin: No, not, not really.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, number 12, and again, answer in any way you like, uh, threatening your children or pets as an extreme form of intimidation.
Karin: Uh, no. I think early on he had, once he was, he was really angry. What had happened? He'd taken some drugs and he did threaten one of my, like, he threatened one of my older children who was like, not his. Um, if I had, if I didn't come and meet up with him, he wanted to talk to me. Um, and I didn't want to go, I didn't feel safe.
Karin: And he threatened to come over to the house and harm my older child if I didn't meet up with him to have like this discussion with him that he needed to have. Um, so I did go, I did end up going. Um.
Lisa: Of course you did. Of course you did. Yeah. And, and he knew that, yeah.
Karin: Yes. He knew that I wouldn't allow him to come to the house and... and hurt my child.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Um, but yeah, as it as it went on, I don't think he needed to make the threats anymore. I think it was sort of, a lot of them were, became implied threats in the end. Like you just knew that you needed to do what he said you needed to say, "Yes." There was no saying no to him.
Lisa: He had conditioned you into that through the coercive control. Yeah, absolutely.
Karin: Yeah. So, by the end of it, yeah, there weren't so many threats anymore. It wasn't needed because I already knew, I think I already knew the consequences. So.
Lisa: Yeah, you had learned them throughout the relationship.
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: So, of those 12 signs, um, I wanna ask you if you can think back to what struck you? Did any of these things strike you early on? Um, and if so, or if not, at what point did you start to recognize were there... were there some of those specific signs that sort of, you started to recognize that, hey, this, maybe this is not a good thing. Maybe this is not normal.
Karin: It took me a while. Um, honestly, when I look back now, there were so many red flags that should have been signs that, you know–
Lisa: Let's talk about those real quick. Let's talk about those. Yeah.
Karin: Yeah. So, like when I look back now, it was the criticizing of my friends all the time, um, not wanting to meet, not wanting me to have a life outside of him. I think, um, you know, in a healthy relationship it's important to have, you know, relationships or different sorts of relationships and to be able to go and spend time with other people and, you know, come back to the relationship.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: So, I think when I look back now, and I think I sh... that should have been a sign that he was trying to keep me all to himself. Um, the jealousy was another big one that, um, he was, yeah, so easily jealous. Even simple things like getting angry at people when we would, like, we would go out to a restaurant and he would get angry. He really impatient, really angry, really expecting everything to revolve around him or expecting everyone to do everything he needed immediately. And it's like when I look back now, that's how he, he, that he had a very high expectation that everybody bowed down to him or that, you know, whatever he wanted took priority over everything else.
Lisa: Wow. Huge narcissism there. Wow.
Karin: So, I think, yeah, that, like, there was signs of that early on that I, but I was unaware that that's was sort of an narcissistic trait and that was going to be something that would lead him to be yeah, overly controlling of everything I did as well.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so things like isolating you from your friends. The jealousy, the anger, those sorts of things early in the relationship. If we're, if we're talking now to any woman who is, um, comes upon those things or is feeling like maybe they're early in a relationship and they're starting to experience these sorts of things, um, those are things that should stop them. Yeah.
Karin: Yes.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Get out while you can.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Before you get too attached. Yeah. The... the trauma bonding is, yeah, quite hard to break once you're in.
Lisa: And how could you gauge about when that sort of stuck, so it, when the trauma bonding was to the point where you were now, you were in it.
Karin: Um, probably three to six months in. I think he was–
Lisa: Wow. That's fast, Karin.
Karin: Yeah, he was, you know, it was a connection he'd never had before. He kept bringing that up all the time, you know, it was, you know, he never felt this way. He was... wanted to spend like, you know, all our time together. He would, he just, it seemed good at the time.
Lisa: Yeah, at the time, yeah.
Karin: Yeah. He said a lot of the right things. He hated men who were, you know, violent towards women. You know, he would, he'd grown up with a single mom, and he would, you know, couldn't imagine, you know, someone hurting, you know, her and, you know, he would say he was doing things for his mom. I later found out he wasn't really doing all these wonderful things he said he was doing, so he sounded like, you know, this guy that was, you know, really respected women – in reality he did not.
Lisa: He did not. Yeah. Yeah. So those sorts of things in terms of women who may be experiencing that or feeling that in their relationship, um, it doesn't take long, I think is... is what I'm hearing from you. It... it can be very quick.
Karin: Yes. They're very whirlwind. Very, yeah.
Lisa: Yeah. And that's part of why it works, right?
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: Because if they gave you time to get your bearings.
Karin: Yes. If they gave you time to see other parts of them, then you probably wouldn't stay, but...
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Karin: When everything they're saying sounds so good.
Lisa: Right? Yeah. And you think they're looking out for you and they're protecting you and they just love you so much. They wanna be around you. Yeah.
Karin: Yes. All the time. And yeah, they want the best for you or, you know, that person. I don't think that person's, you know, the best influence for you. And you know, you are, you could do so much more with your life if you just didn't see them all the time and...
Lisa: Wow. Um, I think that's a really important sentiment to, uh, sort of highlight right there, because that is something I hear from every victim I've talked to of, uh, survivor of a coercive control relationship. Is that idea that you could be better without them.
Karin: Yes.
Lisa: Right. I'm looking out for you. I am the one who's looking out for you.
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: I'm the one you need to spend time with.
Karin: Yes.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Definitely. I want what's best for you, you know?
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: You know, you just listen to me, you know, think how wonderful, you know, things could be. And you know, you could be whatever you say your dreams are, you know, all of a sudden they can help you achieve.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: That–
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: If you just listen to them and only them.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. And then that never comes to be, right.
Karin: No.
Lisa: Yeah. Thank you for that. So, I think those are important red flags to look out for in the beginning. Anytime somebody is, um, disrespecting your wishes or your boundaries.
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: Um, we, that's a huge red flag. Um, anytime someone is saying things to demean or degrade you, um. You have to ask yourself, why does this person need to be controlling my emotional state?
Karin: Yes.
Lisa: Why do they need to– why do they need me to feel a certain way about myself that's not good? Yeah.
Karin: I think they're very good at apologizing too, so it's sort of, if it becomes, yeah. Something that they've done more than once.
Lisa: Mm-hmm.
Karin: Then definitely a pattern that they're not listening to, you know, your boundaries. They're not listening to how they've made you feel.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Karin: They don't care usually how you feel.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Karin: And ' cause yeah, there was a few times I think, where I've sort of said that I was upset and it was, he didn't care.
Lisa: Didn't matter.
Karin: Apologies in the moment, but then it was the repeated behavior and...
Lisa: Right. Because nothing in the relationship at the end of the day was about you. It was about him. Yeah.
Karin: Yeah, it was about him.
Lisa: Yeah. So, let's talk about, um, the women who might be listening to this, who might be in the midst of one of these relationships and just not in a place to be able to get out yet. Are there any coping mechanisms that you used that you found worked for you just to keep yourself safe in that relationship or safer?
Karin: Safer, um, agreeable. I was very agreeable to, it was draining. It was exhausting, but I think the more I argued back with him, the worse it was. I definitely tried not to engage in arguments with him as much as possible. I know I found myself a lot of the times when the kids would do something, I would be trying to fix it before he found out about it.
Karin: Um, just to try and limit, um, it is really hard, but because no matter what you do, they're gonna find something, um, to get angry at you about it because they wanna be angry at you at times. It's the best way to control you is to keep you off balance. So, no matter how hard you try and keep the peace–
Lisa: mm-hmm.
Karin: Um, expect that they're going to nitpick something, they're gonna find something to get angry about. Um, yeah. It's just that knowing, I think knowing the cycle, knowing that they're gonna be nice for a bit, they're going to, you know, go through that whole, the cycle. We're gonna get really angry. We, and then we're gonna apologize. You know, things are gonna be a calm for a little bit, and then they're gonna get angry again. I think I sort of got used to the cycle. I kind of was able to kind of predict, even though I didn't realize it was a cycle, I was kind of able to predict when he would start getting angry again. Nothing I can, there's nothing you can do to stop it.
Karin: They want to be angry and kind of just have to ride it out. I did start trying to, I think when I could get out of the house, um, to see like family, I would try and start looking up things as much as I could. I wasn't allowed to look it up too much on my phone. He would monitor that. Um, but seeing if I could get access to, you know, my mom's phone sometimes and say, can I just, yeah, I just wanna look this up.
Karin: I just wanna see like, starting to make, educate myself. I think on what was happening was quite helpful. Even though it didn't get me out, I was at least aware of like what he was doing, uh, which made a huge difference, I think. In my mind, I knew I wasn't crazy anymore. I knew it was–
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: It was him that was, you know, not right.
Lisa: And you... and feeling not alone I imagine was a part of that. Yeah, yeah.
Karin: Yeah. So yeah, there was a lot of times I'd be looking for stuff or looking for other people to, like, trying to find stories of other people that have been through the same thing I'd been through to say, okay, it's not just me. I'm not crazy. I'm not, um, even learning yeah. Like trauma bonding. Like I didn't learn that till right towards the end. And then once I could understand that it sort of made it easier to understand what was happening.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Um, and that, you know, it made it easier to take steps to eventually leave. Like I, I tried to leave so many times, but yeah, once I started to educate myself, but trying to get that information is so hard when you are stuck in... in that relationship. 'Cause it is, it's so hard. You're not allowed to use your own phone. They monitor, like he monitored my phone. If he didn't have my phone, he would, he could see what I was doing through my children's iPads. Um, so he would monitor it that way.
Lisa: Wow.
Karin: Um, even, I think one of the times I left, he rang me to tell me that he knew that I'd looked up stuff about narcissism on my phone because I didn't realize that while I was looking up on my phone, had transferred to the kids' iPads because they were on my account.
Lisa: Oh no.
Karin: Yeah. So, it was... okay, I can't use my own devices and it's like, what device? Like what can I get on to find out this information? So, it was having to rely on yeah. Like family to–
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Can I borrow so I can look at this up? I need, I, I want reassurance.
Lisa: I think that's, that's the thing about anybody who's in, I mean, whether it's a cult or a relationship, any coercive control environment is being able to see what other people are going through to understand that other folks have gone through this, this is not normal, this is not okay. And you can get out. Um, yeah.
Karin: Yeah. That's, it's just huge to... to try and get information so that you can try and understand–
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: And not feel like you're, you know, stuck doing this by yourself.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Um, great. Okay. Thank you for that. I think those are important things for, um, any woman who might be dealing with this presently to take into consideration things that might... might just help keep you a little safer while you're in it. And then I wanna talk about getting out of it.
Karin: Yes.
Lisa: The good stuff.
Karin: So hard to get out, but once you're out, so much better.
Lisa: Okay. So, what was the first– when was the first time you went, I need to get out of this.
Karin: Um, God, I think we were together for nearly nine years, and the first time would've been about five years in.
Lisa: Okay.
Karin: Um, I think that was when the monitoring was like at its all-time peak. That was like, this is can't, this can't be normal.
Lisa: Okay.
Karin: But I had nowhere to go, no resources to... to be able to look it up because I couldn't touch any devices. I couldn't, I was barely leaving the house. But it did get to the point where he got violent and I did leave.
Lisa: Okay.
Karin: I grabbed the boys, I packed up. Um. I went to a... a family member's house, and I was there for about a week. He, yeah, he stalked, he rang, he messaged, if I blocked him, I think I blocked his phone. He couldn't ring me. He emailed me. Um, it was, yeah, over the top. He apologized, promised, you know, things. Um, I think we weren't married, promised, you know, oh, we'll get married.
Karin: We'll, you know, we'll do this, we'll do that. None of it ever happened. Um, and that went on, I think for the next, yeah, like three years. It would be, he would get angry. He would do something. He would kick us out. Sometimes he would tell us to get out. He would throw like clothes out the door, front door and just say, get out.
Lisa: And then you would leave. And then he would get you back.
Karin: And he would apologize. And I would go back. It was, I was almost, I was a mess when he would do this. I was an absolute mess. I was dying for him to like, beg me to come back for the apologies for the, like, I... I was so trauma bonded that, you know, when he would ring up and that he'd be saying, oh, you don't wanna be with me anyway. You're happier where you are. And I'm telling him, no, I'm not. I'm not happy. I wanna come home. I wanna, you know, it was, yeah, it was crazy. Um, I honestly believed everything he said.
Lisa: Yeah. 'Cause that trauma bonding you... you, do you believe that, that you are better there?
Karin: Yeah. And yeah. Like, and every time he. I think he'd set it up in a way that I knew I had to prove that I loved him. So then in the end, I'm almost begging and trying to prove to him that, you know, no matter what he does, I still love him and I'll, you know, and I wanna be with him. So, it was just a cycle of he knew he could treat me like absolute crap at the end. And I would still be begging to go back 'cause that was the kid's home. That was, you know, all their stuff was there. You know, if I prove to him, I love him, he'll... he'll be better. And it wasn't until I started trying to look it up and started reaching out. I think I reached out to like one of our, the, um, helplines and that, and they sort of started saying, yeah, it is abuse. And I was sort of getting that confirmation.
Karin: I think that yes, this isn't, because it wasn't, there wasn't a lot of violence. Like there wasn't a lot of physical violence. It was like, is, you know, am I being dramatic? Am I overreacting? Is, you know what he's saying, right. That you know, this is normal. This is so it took, yeah, a few times. I think I rang them a few times when he'd, after he'd kicked us out and I was at a family member's house, I would use, uh, their phone and ring and just sort of say, I dunno if I'm in an abusive relationship, is this abuse?
Lisa: I think that's so common to just think, well, he's not–
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: Beating me all the time. He is not being physically violent with me. He's not hitting me. So, this must not be abuse.
Karin: Abuse. Yeah.
Lisa: Right.
Karin: Like, he's broken my phone. He smashed, I think, I think I went through three phones he'd smashed. Um, so that I couldn't contact people. I think, you know, so he'd been like that. He would slam doors. He would punch walls. But he hadn't been physically violent to me in quite a while. He didn't need to be.
Lisa: Yeah. He already had you under plenty of control. Yeah. Yeah.
Karin: Um, so it was like, is this abuse? Is this, is this normal that he wants to, you know, know where I am all the time? Is this normal that, you know, I can't choose what I wear? Is it normal that, you know, he wants to tell me what to eat like or just crazy things?
Lisa: Yeah. And no, none of that is normal. None of that is normal ladies. Yes. Yeah.
Karin: But yeah, in the time, 'cause I think you're so ingrained in it, it's so, and you're just sort of stuck in it that it's–
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: You, and... and they've trained you to believe that it's normal.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Um, and they're telling you that you're crazy.
Lisa: Right.
Karin: Um, it's not, even though he is not saying, you know, you are crazy, but he's like, you know, no, I talk to so many people and this is how every relationship I've seen is so like, you know what you're saying, you know, so what I'm saying is not right, you know, and he... he knows better and.
Lisa: Yeah. And he's the authority on everything and yeah.
Karin: You know, I've, you know, seen so many relationships and this is how they all are. So, you know, I don't know, like he'd say to me, I dunno what, you know, you dunno what you're talking about. You know, I... I've been out in the world more than you have and I've seen all these relationships and, and this is how it is. And so, I think you're just so, yeah. You feel so crazy in the end that–
Lisa: Yeah, the gaslighting is so prevalent and insidious and, yeah. Yeah.
Karin: So yeah, trying to get somebody to tell me that it was abuse was. In my head, it's like, if... if... if I can get somebody to tell me this is abuse, then maybe I'll start believing it.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: If I can read someone else's story and they're saying, I went through this and it, you know, it is abuse, then I'll, you know, start believing that maybe I'm–
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: It... it is.
Lisa: Did you have family members during that time who were telling you that?
Karin: Um, I have like older kids who, um, one of my, one of my daughters was sort of saying that, you know, she had a friend that was going through something similar and she's like, mom, I think it's, you know, it's controlling. I think, you know, you need to get out and–
Lisa: Right.
Karin: You sort of wanna listen, but at the same time, she's only young. Like, you know, this is, but you know, this is how, and then like, if I spoke to my mom, 'cause she'd been with my father who was narcissistic for so many, for 30 something years, you know, she didn't see it as–
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Weird or abnormal because it was just like, oh, that's relationships.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. And she was already... it was already normalized for her long ago. Yeah.
Karin: Yeah. For her. So, you know, some things I would say she'd be like, you know, oh yeah, that's not good, but not, you know, oh my God. Like that you need to get out, sort of–.
Lisa: Yeah. So, it was the wonderful people at that call center.
Karin: Yes. Um, I still stayed, however, for, um, even after talking to them, I think I, it would've been on three or four different occasions I rang them and I still stayed for a lot of that. Um, I kept going back. I stayed, um, even though I started to get the idea. Okay, yeah. Yeah. What he's doing isn't okay. What he's doing is, I think, in my head, somewhat abusive.
Lisa: Mm-hmm.
Karin: But he still hasn't been physical. Um. So, I was still kind of stuck, still trauma bonded. Still thought that if I loved him enough that he would, um, you know, somehow magically turn into this wonderful person again.
Lisa: Meanwhile, you're miserable.
Karin: Yes, I'm depressed. I am, um, underweight. I've lost a heap of weight. Um, you know, my older kids were telling me that I looked anorexic, that I looked like I was, I think one of my sons told me I looked like I was near death. I had like sunken in eyeballs.
Lisa: Wow.
Karin: He was... he... he is, um, very brutally honest. Um, so he was very–
Lisa: Yeah, sounds like it. Yeah.
Karin: Harsh and you look really bad mom. Um.
Lisa: Oh.
Karin: Yeah. So that was sort of. That was a bit of a wakeup call to say, yeah, I shouldn't, you know, the... the stress is obviously playing a, like a major toll on my body at that point.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Which was crazy. Yeah, I think so. Then yeah, it took... took me finally seeing a lawyer, legal, like free legal aid, um, who, um, to ask some questions.
Lisa: How did you come across that resource?
Karin: That was, he had gotten really angry. He kicked us out. He was threatening court. He... he was threatening to take me to court for custody of the kids.
Lisa: Even though you weren't married?
Karin: Yes.
Lisa: Okay. Okay.
Karin: So that was, I... I didn't know my rights. I didn't know what I was, um, allowed to do. So, I think I told my mom and my daughter, I'm like, I'm so scared he is gonna take these kids. Like, I'm so scared he's gonna say that, you know, I'm a bad mom. And he's gonna fight for custody of these kids.
Lisa: And you were still living with him at this point?
Karin: Yeah, I knew he'd lie.
Lisa: Okay.
Karin: I knew he'd lie and, you know, make up stories. He'd done that in the past. Um, if it– to like, to his family, he would lie and say things that I'd done that I hadn't done, or, you know, so that they didn't think of me as this wonderful mother and whatever. So, like he's gonna lie. So, my daughter looked it up and said like, you can go, um, and get some free legal advice.
Karin: They're there every Monday. I think it was, um, between certain times. So, she came with me, I went on the Monday, and I said, look, I'm really concerned. He's threatening to take me to court. He wants custody of the kids, you know, kick me out and have the kids. Um, and at that point I showed her some of the messages he had been sending me to say that he was gonna take me to court. He wanted the kids. If I didn't do what he wanted, he was gonna upload, um, images of me that he'd taken without my consent, you know, online. Um, and when I showed her those, she just said to me, this is abuse. You need to go to the police. He's, you know, she said, this is, he can't be doing this. This is, he's making threats. He's, you know, um, and that's the first time I thought, oh my God, this is a lawyer telling me abuse. What he's doing is not okay.
Lisa: And you had just been so normalized to you that you... you didn't even see it as that at the time, yeah.
Karin: No, I was sort of just saying like, you know, what are my rights as far as him?
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: You know, try to go for full custody of the kids. Um, more sort of concerned about that. And when she's saying like all the text messages and the threats, he's making the text messages, she's like, this is abuse. You need to take it further.
Lisa: God bless her, whoever she was.
Karin: Yes, that was... that was huge. 'Cause that was like, oh my God, this is actually someone who's highly educated, someone who's a lawyer, someone who is, you know, in family law, and she's saying to me, this is not okay.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: I think, and that was huge for me to finally have that. I think that was the biggest validation I think I had to say, yeah, all right, I am in an abusive relationship, I need to get out. Then I'm putting the kids in that too. And she said like, that's you. You're allowing the kids to be in that environment, which she said is not healthy. And that was... that was another huge.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: I think.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Thing to hear.
Lisa: Because you were so just trying to look out for them that.
Karin: Yeah, I thought staying was doing the right thing, but.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Staying is, was... was, yeah–
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: Was hurting them as much as it was hurting me.
Lisa: And so how did you finally make the break and get out?
Karin: Um, so when she told me that it was, I think that was huge. And I'm like, she's just like, you have to go to the police. You have to, like, she just sort of put it in a way that, that there was not an option. What he was doing was, you know, was so bad. I'm like, and I never felt that it was that bad. Um, so I think the following day I did go down to the police station. I thought, I'll just ask.
Lisa: Mm-hmm.
Karin: You know, it can't be that bad. It's not that. Um, and when I started showing them the text messages, I think at this point, because I had ignored his text messages whilst I was at seeing the lawyer, he sent me messages all going through that night, Monday night. Um, he'd uploaded, he, he'd messaged me. I've done it. Now I've, you're ignoring me. I've uploaded those images of you. Um. Online and all the rest of it. And that was just horrifying.
Lisa: Mm.
Karin: That there was gonna be, you know, images of me in a compromising position, um, that he'd uploaded. And I was just absolutely mortified. Um, so I went to the police the next day and I just said, look, this is what he said. This is, you know, I've been told that, you know, he... this is against the law. He can't do this. Um, how do I get them taken down? What do I need to do? And they went through with, I made a big statement and they said, no, we actually need to charge him.
Lisa: Okay.
Karin: Um, so he was arrested, I think on the Wednesday. Um.
Lisa: Excellent.
Karin: Yeah. And an AVO was put in place and I got the kids, we got our stuff out, and I came and started living with, um, family members from that day.
Lisa: Good. Good. Okay. How long ago was that?
Karin: So that was in, what was that March this year? The start of March.
Lisa: Wow. Wow. Okay.
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: All right. So you are, what is that, about eight, nine months?
Karin: Yeah. Out.
Lisa: Out, out. So first of all, congratulations for getting yourself out of that. Um, so much strength that it must have taken to do that.
Karin: Yeah, so it was scary. I was so concerned. 'Cause he's so anti-police too, so going to the police was like the one thing he never wanted me to do, so.
Lisa: Mm-hmm. Can I ask what came of that? Was he charged? Was he jailed? Is he out now? Is he still?
Karin: Um, he was charged. He entered a plea deal, um, which gave him community service and I think he's on... I think it's like a good behavior bond sort of thing. So, if he gets into trouble again, then he will, um, go to jail. But otherwise, he had community service.
Lisa: Okay.
Karin: And that was it.
Lisa: Okay.
Karin: And the AVO.
Lisa: So that's still in place and?
Karin: That's still in place. That's in place for two years.
Lisa: Okay. Okay. That's great. Um, and I assume they'll extend that, uh, at the end of the two years, I imagine.
Karin: Hopefully. Yes.
Lisa: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Karin, what does life look like now for you on the other side of this?
Karin: He has followed the restraining order AVO, um, which was surprising, but so good. Um, my kids and I are all like, we're all in counseling. Um.
Lisa: Good.
Karin: Which has been really good. We are pretty peaceful, very quiet life now. Very quiet. I help out at my kids' school one day a week, um, which was something I was never, ever allowed to do previous to this. Um.
Lisa: And that was because there were other men at the school, is that right? Yes.
Karin: Yes. There were male teachers. There were fathers that would be dropping their children off. Um, it was a huge deal for me to have to take the kids to school and head down, no eye contact, don't speak to anybody, pretty much try to be invisible. Just get the kids in the gate and get home. Um, so now.
Lisa: And now you get to volunteer over there. That's wonderful.
Karin: So, I get to volunteer. Um, you, my kids are doing so much better at school. My kids were so worried. I think they could sense the fear going into school each day. My oldest son, who's seven, was scared that if he left to go to school, that dad. You know?
Lisa: Mm-hmm.
Karin: Um, be angry if, you know, so he was, he didn't like going to school. Now he loves school, absolutely loves school. He can't wait to get there every day. He's doing so much better at school, which is fantastic.
Lisa: That's worth all of it right there.
Karin: Yes, yes. So that was, that was huge for me that yeah, he actually loves going to school now, and he is doing really, really well. So, it's like, it made me realize that it was the right decision–
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: To make.
Lisa: Yeah. When you see your kids start to flourish, you know you've done something right. Yeah. Yeah.
Karin: So, yeah, they're a lot, they're a lot more calm now. They're... they are they, um, yeah. Their anxiety's like, um, lessened so much now around everything, so–
Lisa: Wow.
Karin: They're excited. They have friends. They can go to birthday parties, you know, we can have play dates, um, which are all things that we could not do before. Which is, yeah, huge. I can actually speak to, you know, people I guess. I... I speak to, you know, parents at the school when, you know, if we're walking home, like some days we'll walk home from school, like we can walk home with other kids, with other parents, and I can actually have conversations with people, which is huge.
Lisa: Wow. Wow. Just... just the freedom to just live your life is huge.
Karin: I know. I sort of, when I say it, I'm like, these are all normal things that normal people do, and they sound like so exciting to me, but I'm like, oh, this is just sort of, yeah. If you, if you know you, you haven't lived through it, it just sounds like they're normal things that...
Lisa: No, enjoy that excitement. Um, you deserve it.
Karin: But, yeah, it's been so much better, so much more peaceful. A lot less drama, which has been amazing.
Lisa: Excellent.
Karin: Um, yeah, I've started exercising again. I've put on weight, um, which is, yeah. 'Cause I'm actually eating properly. Um.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: I'm eating chocolate, um.
Lisa: Lovely. Beautiful.
Karin: Which is amazing.
Lisa: Which I hear Australian chocolate is tops.
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: It is so good.
Lisa: I have yet to experience that, but I can't wait. Yeah.
Karin: Do. You definitely have to try it? It is, yeah.
Lisa: Is there anything that you would like to say, um, to any woman who might be experiencing one of these relationships? Whether they find themselves, you know, maybe they're just started dating someone and some of these things are just like little... little happenings and the relationship, um, or maybe they're in the relationship. Um.
Karin: Yeah, I think if you're just starting out, have boundaries. If they cross the boundaries, get out, get out. Um, I didn't have boundaries. Yeah. So definitely look up research, you know, how to set your boundaries to have them. Um, I think they... that like that way would make such a difference when you're starting out. That if people are gonna cross your boundaries, then you know that they don't have respect for you.
Lisa: And you're done.
Karin: That's, yeah. Get out before it, you know, you get stuck if you're in it. I think. Yeah. The best thing you can do is educate yourself, which I know is so, so hard to get hold of resources when you're stuck in it. Um, but yeah, education on understanding trauma bonds, understanding coercive control. As much as you can, because the more you can understand it, the more you start to realize that what you're going through isn't normal. And... that's the biggest step.
Lisa: Great.
Karin: Because they make you crazy. They honestly make you feel so crazy that you think it's normal or that, you know, if you just love them enough, if you, if you do better, if you, if you get better than you know, or you do the ri– you know, you, you fix everything, then it'll be better and it won't. I think that's the biggest thing, that there's nothing wrong with you. You are not doing anything wrong. And no matter how hard you try, it's never gonna be enough for them. And once you can sort of get that and understand that, then it makes a big difference to sort of starting to make steps to getting out.
Lisa: Great.
Karin: And you need to get out. As hard as it is, you have to get out.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: I didn't think I would ever get out. Um, yeah. I literally have his name tattooed on my finger. Um, because when I was in it... in it, I thought that was it. That was it. I was there forever.
Lisa: Wow.
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: And seeing how much more lovely your life is now; I think that that is yeah.
Karin: Yeah. It is. Life can be so much better, you know?
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: If, if you get out, it can be so much better. It can be so much more peaceful. The... the chaos that you're living now is not normal, and it doesn't have to be like that, I think. And I never knew that. I never knew that, you know, life could actually just be calm, quiet.
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: They... they didn't have to be drama all the time. I honestly thought that, that this, there being drama all the time was just normal part of life. And it's not.
Lisa: It's not at all. Yeah. Yeah.
Karin: So yeah, that's, I think that's probably the biggest thing. Yeah. Knowing that, yeah, this is not, you don't have to live the rest of your life like that.
Lisa: That's great. And we ha... and we all have our deal, ladies. Right. So, if, so, if a woman walks up to you and says, I'm in a relationship that I don't know is safe, I need information, we're gonna help each other.
Karin: Yeah.
Lisa: We're gonna help each other get that. Yeah.
Karin: Definitely. Biggest thing, support. Yeah. Like having... having someone who will listen and yeah. Say, hey, I'm happy to, you know, to listen to you. I'm happy to help you. You know, if you need to–
Lisa: Let's look stuff up. What do you, yeah.
Karin: If you're questioning it, let's look it up. Let's see. You know?
Lisa: Yeah.
Karin: And give them that reassurance, I think, and validation that yeah, what they're going through is, you know, is not okay. And you know that there's help out there.
Lisa: And you're not crazy... you're not the crazy one.
Karin: Yes. You're not crazy. Not crazy.
Lisa: No, no, no. Yeah. Um, gosh, this has been such a, um, an inspiring, impactful, um, beautiful discussion with you. I'm so, so grateful for you to, to be here, to... to share all of this with us. My gosh. Um, the strength, uh, I'm in awe of your strength.
Karin: Thank you. Thanks so much for letting me share my story.
Lisa: Yeah. And I know maybe Kellie might have, she took some notes. I wasn't sure. Kellie, do you have some questions that you wanted to ask?
Kellie: Well, first, and what's your favorite chocolate bar? What's your favorite chocolate?
Lisa: Oh.
Karin: Uh, we have Caramilk here.
Kellie: I'm writing that down. Caramilk?
Karin: Caramilk is the bomb, the best chocolate.
Lisa: I'm ordering some.
Karin: Like a car– like a white chocolate with caramel. Uh, it's just so, it's just, ugh. I could eat it every day.
Kellie: Chocolate is my love language. So, when you said chocolate.
Karin: I know. I always say that to the kids. Like, what do you want as a present? I'm like... chocolate.
Lisa: Make it easy, kids. Chocolate. Do you have any questions for us at all?
Karin: Uh, I don't think so. No. Thank you so much for letting me share. I'm so excited.
Lisa: Of course.
Karin: So excited, so nervous.
Lisa: Aww. You did fantastic. You were wonderful. Yeah. I hope that you are able to take care of yourself today. I know that conversations like this can bring stuff up. Um, and so eat some chocolate.
Karin: I will be, definitely.
Lisa: Eat some chocolate. Hug the kids. Um, and just know how grateful we are for your time and your sharing today.
Kellie: Lisa, what an incredible conversation with Karin. I was riveted the entire time, and I learned so much about the coercive control relationships, and I loved that you used this list to kind of shape the story and inform us. Tell us more about this list.
Lisa: Yeah, I... I am blown away by her honesty. It's... it was breathtaking to me. Um, and this list really gave us a really nice roadmap to kind of go through things. So, the list is from, uh, an organization called Relationships Australia Victoria, or RAV. And I'm just gonna go through each one, one by one, just to remind ourselves of what these are.
Lisa: So, number one is isolation from support system. Number two is monitoring your activity throughout the day. Three: denying you freedom and autonomy. Four: gaslighting. Five: name calling and severe criticism. Number six is limiting access to money and controlling finances. Seven: coercing you to take care of all the domestic duties. Eight: turning your children against you. Number nine is controlling aspects of your health and your body. Ten: making jealous accusations about the time you spend with family or friends. Eleven: regulating your sexual relationship. And number twelve: threatening your children or pets as an extreme form of intimidation. So, listeners, if you recognize yourself or a loved one within any of that, ask for help. Seek resources. Like Karin said, look stuff up. Know that you're not alone. Know that you can reach out for help.
Kellie: So, listeners, we're going to link that list in our show notes. And listeners, do you have any, uh, safety stories?
Lisa: We wanna hear from you, whether it's a story about a time that you felt threatened or anything you think would help other women stay safer. You can send us an email at DiamondDefensePodcast@gmail.com. You can also hop over to DiamondDefense.com. We've got a podcast page and a contact page right on there. So please reach out if you think you have something to share with us. We'd love to hear from you.
Kellie: Definitely. We are making this podcast because your safety, you, you, the one listening, uh, is important to us and there is power in numbers. We are stronger together. So please share the story and this podcast with the women in your life and in real talk, come on, share the hell out of this show because we want you to be informed, safe, and definitely most importantly, we want you to watch out for motherfuckers.
Lisa: And shine on, Diamonds.
Theme Music: I am a fighter. Checking my armor. I'm marching onward. Hey Hey. I am a fighter, storming…
Kellie: If you or someone you know is experiencing coercive control, emotional abuse, or domestic violence, you deserve support and safety. Resources vary by region. If you're in the United States, you can call the Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE. That's 1-800-799-7233 or visit thehotline.org. If you're listening from outside the United States, please search for domestic violence or family violence support services in your area, or contact a local women's shelter, crisis center, or a trusted healthcare provider who can help you connect with support. You're not alone, and reaching out is a powerful first step.
