Diamond Defense Podcast

When Money Becomes Control: Financial Abuse with Dr. Merideth Thompson

• Diamond Defense • Season 1 • Episode 12

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Dr. Merideth Thompson joins the Diamond Defense Podcast to unpack financial abuse in intimate relationships: what it is, how it overlaps with coercive control, common red flags, safe exit planning, recovery, and how loved ones can help. 

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Production Team

Co-Host and Co-Producer: Lisa

Co-Host and Co-Producer: Kellie

Special Thanks

Ann Cobb, Kelley Ogden, Dr. Merideth Thompson

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Merideth: Actually, we know from the, from the data, from the research that if somebody is experiencing one form of domestic abuse, there's a 98% chance they're also experiencing financial abuse. And I think that goes to like this core of what we need to talk about more, which is domestic abuse. Intimate partner violence is not really about the violence. It is about having power and control over someone.

Kellie: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Diamond Defense Podcast. I'm Kellie.

Lisa: And I'm Lisa. It has been a minute since our last episode, but we are really glad to be back today with this one. Because this is a conversation that affects more people than we often realize. Um, today, Diamonds, we're gonna be talking about something that does not get discussed nearly enough, and that's financial abuse.

Kellie: Lisa, I am really glad we're doing this because in my experience, at least financial abuse isn't something we hear talked about enough. And it can be so quiet and insidious. And at its core, honestly, this is about autonomy, having access to options and the ability to make choices without fear, permission, or punishment.

Lisa: Exactly right. And the tricky thing about financial abuse, right, is that it doesn't always look like what we think abuse looks like. Um, you know, it can be subtle, it can be gradual, uh, and sometimes it can be really hard to name when you're in it.

Kellie: So, listeners, if you've ever felt like you had to justify every purchase, ask to use your own money, hide receipts or walk on eggshells around spending,

Lisa: whether that's happening to you or to someone you love, right? Um, we might see this happening to a friend, a family member, a colleague. Um, either way, you are not alone. And this conversation today, this is for you.

Kellie: And we wanted this to feel like a real conversation, not a lecture, not a money tips episode, but a clear, honest look at how financial abuse works, why it's so hard to name, and what support and next steps you can actually uh, take for you or a loved one.

Lisa: And we are so lucky to be joined today for this conversation by Dr. Merideth Thompson. She is a financial abuse expert. She's gonna help us put language to these patterns so that we can recognize them earlier and we can feel less alone if any part of this hits close to home.

Kellie: Access to our own money without fear or hindrance, can mean freedom, autonomy, and options. Do a quick internal scan when it comes to your finances, whatever the amount, do you feel like you have access and choice, or do you feel like you have to manage around someone else's rules? And if you're listening because you're worried about someone you love, hold them gently in mind, too. Let your questions settle in your pocket as Lisa and Dr. Thompson break this open.

Lisa: Dr. Thompson is a relationship scientist, negotiation professor, and founder of Partner Lab, where she studies power, coercion boundaries and how people lose or reclaim their sense of safety inside intimate relationships. She also serves on the board of the nonprofit FinAbility, which financially empowers domestic abuse survivors.

Lisa: Um, Diamonds, we know that any relationship that restricts our freedom of autonomy, whether it's emotional, physical, or financial, is not a safe relationship. So, we're gonna talk to Dr. Thompson about how to recognize financial abuse early. Um, some of the common tactics, some red flags we need to look out for, and some practical steps and resources for safety and recovery, if that happens. Um, so Dr. Thompson, Merideth, can I call you Merideth?

Merideth: Of course.

Lisa: Thank you so much for sharing your time and your expertise with us today. Um, we're very grateful to have you here and I'd love to start by just asking you to share with us a bit more about your background and your passion for this subject matter.

Merideth: Sure. So, um, I... I think of myself as a social psychologist by, by training to some degree. Um, I've got a Ph.D. in organizational behavior. I teach negotiations. A lot of social psychology there and... and... and interactions between people have fascinated me since I've been probably in high school, maybe even before that.

Merideth: And I've had a number of people close to me who have been in abusive or controlling relationships. And a lot of times, you know, the thing that I think most people would not necessarily predict is that you can be a super smart badass person, woman, and find yourself in that kind of relationship.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Um, and, and that's for a, a bunch of different reasons that we, we can talk about. Um, but a few years ago, I, um, was asked to be on the board of FinAbility, which as you noted is a nonprofit, a young nonprofit that financially empowers abuse survivors and, um, you know--

Lisa: That's so awesome. That's,

Merideth: oh my gosh, they are doing such important– I can, I, I'm not a believer anymore, but I, I consider them, they're, they're doing sacred work.

Lisa: Mm.

Merideth: And they're doing a lot of it more one-on-one in Oregon, um, by, uh, just kind of a constraint or a, a parameter that one of their funders, I.... um, wants them to focus on that. But then more broadly, online education for, um, abuse survivors and just doing such important work. And I think I... I went myself, went through a divorce, um, about 10 years ago. And, um, since finding, um, my current partner, like life has changed so much.

Lisa: Hmm.

Merideth: I have the peace and the freedom that I hadn't had previously, and you know, I'm a, I'm a work life researcher, um, by day, and I know from my own research and also my lived experience that, you know, when our, when our, our home life and our, especially our romantic relationship is super healthy, super happy, it has this just beautiful ripple effect, um, affects our work.

Merideth: It affects our parenting, it affects our friendships, like everything. But then also, you know, the flip side of it, unfortunately, is also true if we're not in a safe relationship. That has a ripple effect and being in a super healthy, um, equal relationship now is just my career's taken off. I've... I've launched businesses where my prior self would go, you're, you did what?

Merideth: And so, it's, it's really like, it's just, it is something I'm passionate about. 'Cause I've, I know from the research what happens, but I also know from lived experience that if we're in. A super healthy relationship. It's, um, it, it change, it transforms our lives. And I, I just want that for everybody. 'Cause life is too damn short to not have that.

Lisa: That's absolutely right. Yes. Oh gosh. I love that. I love that so much. Um, so on that front, um. And I think that's so important to address, right? That when there is an... an unhealthy imbalance, uh, in a relationship, it does affect every, every part of us, every part of our lives.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um.

Merideth: Yeah.

Lisa: Including financial abuse and, and it being in financial abuse being just one of the most insidious things. Right. We don't--

Merideth: Totally–

Lisa: Sometimes we don't recognize that um, when it's happening, um, we make our, our brains make excuses for what's going on.

Merideth: Yes.

Lisa: Um, so for listeners who, who might not recognize that yet, or. Or kind be familiar with what that is. Um, can you describe for us what financial abuse is?

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: And why it tends to be such a powerful control tactic in abusive relationships?

Merideth: So financial abuse can actually look like a lot of different things. I think what a lot of times the... the kind of definition or conceptual, um, con Yeah. Kind of conceptual framework that we use is like when somebody in a relationship controls all the money.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: But that, you know, also has, I call, it has, like, think of it as like has tentacles or fingers.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: Because it can also mean like, you know, maybe the, um the survivor is in a relationship with somebody who's controlling or abusive, but the survivor works, but they don't have access to their own money.

Lisa: Hmm.

Merideth: Or, you know, sometimes it can also be the survivor is not allowed to work. They're not allowed to have to have their own money, much less control of money. Or it can also look like, um, um, a harm doer trying to prevent a survivor from getting an education or getting training that would then allow them to get a job. So, it's, it's got. You know, you talked about it as insidious and I... I do think it's one of the most, because, you know, with physical abuse, we tend not to ruminate on that.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: It, um, we can see it, you know, we can see where we have a, a bruise or, um, you know, some sort of physical evidence of what's happened, but other, other forms of abuse like, um, emotional, sexual, and especially financial, you know, we, we can drive ourselves crazy going wait. Is this... is this inappropriate? Like, is this healthy? And a lot of times I think that's because it, it starts off, you know, very rarely is somebody gonna say, I'm controlling all the money. This is the way it's gonna be.

Lisa: Right.

Merideth: It's starts off and you know, I think. A lot of times in a very charming way, it's like, oh honey, like you don't worry about that, I'll take care of it.

Lisa: Right.

Merideth: Um, somebody close to me, um, was the breadwinner in their family, and yet their spouse said, "You make the money and I'll manage it."

Lisa: Hmm.

Merideth: Well, that did not end well. Um, because

Lisa: it usually doesn't

Merideth: became very controlling, yes, it doesn't. But you know, on the front end it comes across as like, oh, well they, they just wanna take care of me.

Lisa: Right.

Merideth: They don't want me to worry; they don't want me to be stressed. But when, you know, giving up that control over time, that, um. It's tremendously hard to get it back, right? I mean it for the... for survivors, the averages, it takes them seven attempts to leave before they actually leave.

Lisa: Hmm.

Merideth: And for those, um, you know, we actually... we know from the, from the data, from the research that if somebody is experiencing one form of domestic abuse, there's a 98% chance they're also experiencing financial abuse.

Lisa: Wow.

Merideth: And I think that goes to like this core of what we need to talk about more, which is domestic abuse, intimate partner violence is not really about the violence. It is about having power and control over someone.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And what better, effective, not better, but effective way to control someone than by controlling their resources. So, makes it much harder for them to leave. Um, it makes it, you know, harder for them to leave the house if they, it's hard to go out and meet a friend for coffee–

Lisa: Right.

Merideth: If you don't have money or a credit card to pay for that coffee with, and so it's, it's really all about the power and control and I... I... I... I would love for, um, a conversation to switch more to that. Like that's the goal of abuse, no matter what kind. It's having control over someone.

Lisa: That lack of autonomy, right?

Merideth: Yes. Yes.

Lisa: It's–

Merideth: Absolutely–

Lisa: Whether bodily, financially–

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Whatever it is. If you are not free to–

Merideth: Yes.

Lisa: Do what you want to do, when you want to do it, um, even with your money. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Merideth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um can you talk about some of those, maybe sort of subtle early warning signs or red flags that–

Merideth: Mm.

Lisa: You know, we talk about it being insidious that it starts, it's just like. Physical abuse. Right? They don't punch you in the face on the first date–

Merideth: Right. Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um, you know, there's those that, that sort of slow walk into gaining control.

Merideth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lisa: Um, can you talk about some of those maybe early signs that, that folks maybe often miss?

Merideth: Well, I, I do think one of them is that I, when a partner says, well, I'll, I'll control this or not control, I'll, I'll worry about this. You don't worry about it. You know, they wanna quote, save you the stress but I think one thing a lot of times that isn't talked about is when that happens, you lose your financial literacy.

Lisa: Mm.

Merideth: Like, and you lose that. And, and that's, you know, part of the goal of... of abuse is getting the survivor to doubt themselves, to lose trust in themselves. And so, um, that's why I think the work of FinAbility is so important. 'Cause it is helping build that financial literacy and survivors. Um. I know–

Lisa: Is there gaslighting involved in that? Is that a tactic that–

Merideth: Oh, oh absolutely. Yes. Yeah.

Lisa: Okay.

Merideth: Yeah. Anything to get a survivor to doubt their own, um, ability to do something or, um, you know, 'cause a lot of what comes with various types of abuse is, you know it's degrading and it's, it's, it's lowering the per the survivor's self-esteem. And so–

Lisa: Right, right.

Merideth: You know, if you can get them to think, oh, well I'm not good with money. And a lot of times I think that's what it is. It's like, you're not good with money, so you spent this on, you know, however much on the stress or whatever that, um, then kind of quote gives them, uh, abusive partner an excuse to like, control things because like, well, you're not good with money, so I, I'll, I'll be good with money.

Merideth: That, that's very often there. I think the next layer, um, or kind of steppingstone to it... it escalating is a partner demanding to see, you know, receipts for a purchase or–

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: Like little things.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: That it just starts that slippery slope to controlling every little thing. And, um, that I think for, for some it is like, if they have that career or a means of, um, earning their own money.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: It becomes, you know, maybe a concern about, oh, well you're working so many hours, it's not good for your health, and maybe you should quit.

Lisa: Mm.

Merideth: Or, um, not taking a promotion because you're like, oh, that the children, think of the children. You know, that's, that's one that abusers love to use. Um–

Lisa: Wow.

Merideth: It would be too disruptive. And so, you know, it just, these things build on each other.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And yeah, they get harder and harder to climb out of.

Lisa: So, language that I'm hearing from you are things like, you don't worry about that. Let me worry about that.

Merideth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um, you are not good with money. I'm good with money, so I will control this. Um–

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: And then some em, emotional manipulation in terms of controlling your choices about how you get money or make money. Yeah–

Merideth: Money. Absolutely. Yes. So–

Lisa: Okay.

Merideth: Control at every, every level.

Lisa: And then how– so those, so those being sort of the way it starts, how does that typically escalate over time?

Merideth: Hmm, great question. Um, I think there are several ways. A lot of times it becomes a, like a blending of finances.

Lisa: Okay.

Merideth: And, you know, at a lot of, um, American couples do that, you know–

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: From the get-go. But especially when they get married, it's like we only have joint bank accounts and we close individual ones and, um, or, from there, it could also be more of that monitoring. So, you know, maybe the abusive partner logs onto their joint bank account every day and looks, and for things like, oh, I don't know what that was like, what's this? You know, $15 charge at Starbucks? Why is that? Who are you with? So, it, again, it kind of has the tentacles and fingers. So, it's not about the money, it's then about who they're with. Why were they there, who else was there? What did they talk about?

Lisa: Right.

Merideth: A lot of times too, like, um, so it's just another mechanism for control.

Lisa: It's sort of a... a monitoring mechanism at that point.

Merideth: Absolutely. And not just monitoring money. It's monitoring social interaction.

Lisa: Yes. Yeah.

Merideth: Opportunities for social support.

Lisa: Right.

Merideth: And so, it... it... it also starts to like, isolate the survivor more and more and more. And then, you know, for, and others, I think it, it can move to, you know, well, I'm gonna control the money and I'll give you an allowance so that, you know, you have to ask for, you know, basics, grocery money or things like that.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And um, one thing I, I will be frank, I hadn't really thought about until I was on the board of FinAbility and heard from other survivors that, basically their... their credit rating was obliterated because of their partners. Because partners would rack up debt in their name without them knowing about it. Um, or would, you know, if they were in a, you know, a rental apartment, their lease would just, it would be awful because the maybe, uh, the survivor got where they were able to move out, and then the abuser would like basically just destroy the apartment, like wreak havoc.

Lisa: Wow. Wow.

Merideth: So that, you know, that makes it hard for the survivor then to get a new lease because, you know, their name probably was on the lease because they're an adult.

Lisa: Right.

Merideth: And then, you know, so it, it again, it has fingers that are just, are that insidiousness.

Lisa: That makes me think of, um, a recent interaction I had with a student, and she was talking about how her partner, um, luckily now her ex-partner. But her partner at the time would, uh, basically she would, she would pay the bills at the beginning of the month and then she would tell him, you know, what he owed and, and get the money from him. And he was trying to sort of chip away at that.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: And would– Every month he would ask her, you know, he needed to see that bill.

Merideth: Mm.

Lisa: He needed to make sure that she wasn't, you know–

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Scamming him or cheating him, or asking for more than, than it was, which, if, you know, this person is an absolutely ridiculous thing to think that she would do.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: But he, it finally got to the point where she was so sick of the questioning that. Right. It was just easier to let him–

Merideth: Oh–

Lisa: Take, take that bill over.

Merideth: Yeah.

Lisa: And then several months later. The power gets turned off because–

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Even though she has been paying him money for that bill–

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: He wasn't paying the bill.

Merideth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um, and so he destroyed her, um, her credit, her good standing.

Merideth: Right.

Lisa: Uh, with the power company. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um, so yeah, it's–.

Merideth: That's why I... I... I... uh, I think it's so important for, for all people that I think women are more. There's more social pressure for them to give up control of that.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: But you know, whenever I have a chance with my undergrads, I strongly encourage them like. Make your own money. And control your own money.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And that's one thing I talk with clients about, like, it's so important. Like it can be, you know, in the early years you're like romantic, oh, he wants to take care of me or, you know, whatever.

Lisa: Right, right.

Merideth: And but controlling your own money, um, not only is I think protective, but you maintain that sense of trust in your own ability to make the money, to manage the money.

Lisa: Right.

Merideth: And, and I'll be frank, like in my first marriage, it was all blended and, um. The way all that shook out, I will never do that again. And with my current partner, we've been together nine years. And there's also this freedom that comes with making and controlling your own money.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: So, there we put money together in an account for like shared expenses, rent or food

Lisa: mm-hmm.

Merideth: And stuff like that. But then, like when I... I spend more money getting my hair cut and colored, then I want to admit to anybody on this planet. But like it comes outta my account.

Lisa: But that's your choice. Yes. Oh no.

Merideth: That's my choice. And so, it's like I don't have to explain, or when he wants to go get, like he'll go get a new tennis racket and I don't care what he spends on it.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: It's not my money.

Lisa: You don't need to see that.

Merideth: Spend an ungodly amount of money on a tennis racket. He can do that.

Lisa: Yes.

Merideth: And so, you know, it also just it, I think that too, that can be a way to cut down on conflict in a relationship.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Because the three things that couples fight about are parenting, sex, and money.

Lisa: Wow. Yeah.

Merideth: And if you can take the money part out, yeehaw.

Lisa: Right? Uh, uh, yeah. My wife and I are the same way. We have been together for 25 years, and we have always kept separate accounts. Um, I don't wanna know what she spends on gardening stuff, and she doesn't wanna know what I spend on anything. You know, because, like you said, it, it you, when you preserve that autonomy–

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: For yourself and for each other. Um, there's just some, there's something psychological that that does in terms of feeling that freedom in the relationship, right?

Merideth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Lisa: And, and so in terms of the, the flip side, um, where we have abusive relationships, um–

Merideth: mm-hmm.

Lisa: Can you talk a little bit about how financial abuse intersects with those other forms of abuse, like emotional abuse, course of control, sexual coercion, that sort of stuff?

Merideth: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. You know, all these things really overlap with each other a lot. If there's one form of abuse the day to say that there's likely others and maybe all the others, um, kind of going on in the relationship at the same time. So, I think the... the gaslighting is definitely there. Like saying, well, you're bad with money, so, you know, let me control it. Or, um. You're too busy or you're too distracted, you know, I'm gonna do this. So, giving some sort of excuse that maybe at the time they're like, really?

Lisa: Yeah–

Merideth: But you, you kind of get used to it, right?

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: You– it's a slippery slope. You know? It's, if they were like, you know, put me on, put me as beneficiary on all of your retirement accounts, you go, huh. But it's, it's slippery. And so, um, or just saying, you know, you're not responsible enough to do this and, and I'm gonna take it over. I think that kind of gaslighting.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Um, I have a friend who's a. Like me as a business professor and found herself in a similar situation, she's like, I'm a business professor. I shouldn't, like, how did I let this happen?

Lisa: Right?

Merideth: But it is that gaslighting, right? It's like–.

Lisa: Right.

Merideth: And whether it's under the form of you're not responsible or I'm gonna help you, I'm gonna take care of this so you don't have to worry about it. It, it, to me it amounts to kind of the same thing. And then, um–.

Lisa: And there's shame in that–.

Merideth: You know–.

Lisa: Unfortunately.

Merideth: Oh, totally.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Totally. And it's so, like, so hard. Like you might think is this, am I in an unsafe relationship?

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: But, you know, a lot of people don't wanna talk about that with her friends, right?

Lisa: Right.

Merideth: Because it's, there's so much shame that comes with it.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Which then makes it harder to leave or harder to get out of the situation.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: But I think sexual, um, abuse or coercion, super often is a part of that because I listened to some content just in the last few days that said something about, you know, women are still, um, the gatekeepers of, of sex. But I think when, um, you're in a, an abusive relationship, people can use money as a bargaining chip for compliance related to sex or, you know, whether that's just an actual sexual act or whether it's. Um, something more, um, you know, outside of that, that's, you know, well I have access to the money and so, you know, I want you to sleep with this person or I'm bringing a third person into our relationship. Like, or I wanna take these pictures of you. Like, there's so many things there that can–

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Um, that is still, it's all about the control.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And taking away somebody's self-trust and autonomy. And so, um yeah,. I think those, those two in particular are, yeah, really important.

Lisa: And you know, when, um, this makes me think about a recent episode we did where we talked with, um, a woman named Karin who had gone through a nine yearlong course of control relationship. And one of the things she talked about was his need to, even though she was the only one making money–.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Because he never wanted to work.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: He controlled the money, right?

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Because he controlled everything. But what that did for her was like, she couldn't go out to the pub and have a drink with a friend.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Cause she didn't have access to money. She couldn't go shopping for herself to buy something that made her feel good.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Cause she didn't have access to money.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: You know? Right. So, it... it just makes me think of that. It's just another way to control behavior, to control social, um, relationships, isolationism, that sort of stuff.

Merideth: Yep.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Totally. Yeah. I think the... the end goal for a lot of abusers, whether they like, um, are rationally aware of it or not, is that isolation?

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: You know, somebody is much, much easier to control if they don't have a support network, if they don't have friends. Like if you can isolate them.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Yeah. It makes the abuser's job much easier.

Lisa: Yeah. Cause nobody's there to say, Hey, what that person is doing is not correct.

Merideth: Yes.

Lisa: And it's not safe and you need to get out that. Yeah.

Merideth: Yes, absolutely. Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um, so if. If we or someone that we love, suspect that they are being financially controlled–

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: In some way, shape, or form.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: What, uh, do you have recommendations for sort of safer steps that they can take to either A, kind of determine if that's the case, and then b start to... to try and get some autonomy back?

Merideth: So, I think one of the first steps is information gathering.

Lisa: Okay.

Merideth: And, um, you know, in some situations this is easier than others, but like, taking thoughtful steps to know where the money is.

Lisa: Mm.

Merideth: And so that may mean taking photos of tax returns. So, if it's a couple and they're filing joint returns, like–

Lisa: Oh–.

] Merideth: They're gonna have to sign. So, you know, can you get a picture of that?

Lisa: Nice.

Merideth: Bank statements, um, investment logins. So, trying to, to get a sense of where the money is, especially for, um. Generally speaking, the research is not, um, optimistic or encouraging about, um, abusive partners being rehabilitated.

Lisa: Okay.

Merideth: And so, getting some of these pieces of information so that when maybe somebody does to go talk to a divorce attorney, like, help me understand the situation.

Lisa: Mm.

Merideth: Um, you know, they can share some of that. And, um, so yes, the first I would say–

Lisa: So just information gathering–

Merideth: Information. Yep.

Lisa: Okay.

Merideth: Yep.

Lisa: Gotcha.

Merideth: And, you know, recognizing that doing so can be risky. And so being very strategic about when and how they do it... um... um, I know I have a friend who would document her, um, abusive, at that time, partners behavior, and then send it in, uh, like a text to her sister.

Lisa: Oh, wow.

Merideth: And then immediately delete it.

Lisa: Oh, nice.

Merideth: And so that may be one thing to think about is like, you get it, but you may not wanna hold onto it because if your partner finds like you've been collecting this information–.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: It could be, you know, physically unsafe for them. And so, figuring out who, who might be a safe space that they could share these things with. Um, mm-hmm.

Lisa: In our last, uh, episode, we spoke with a woman named Tiffiny who was in, a situation where everything was being monitored.

Merideth: Mm.

Lisa: Um, text, phone, emails, every, Facebook, everything.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: So, she created a... a separate email account that she didn't share with him.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um, that he didn't know about at all. And because she got to the point, right. And the relationship where she realized I. Think that I'm being controlled.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um, and so that's where she would, she would send things, um, and she would hold things that, so having an, an account, um, maybe an email account they don't know about or finding that safe person. And if we feel like maybe somebody that we know or love is being financially controlled, um. Very gently offering to be that safe–.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Space for them.

Merideth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lisa: I think would be something to do, right?

Merideth: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa: Okay.

Merideth: Absolutely. And I think what you noted there is, you know, the safe space, but, um, and I think the next step after gathering information is, um, figuring out your exit plan.

Lisa: Okay.

Merideth: And how to make that safe. We know that the most dangerous point in a woman's life is when she notifies a male partner that she's ending the relationship.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And how to go about that safely. You know, not doing it face to face or having a maybe a male friend or a, a male family member with her when she does that.

Lisa: Okay.

Merideth: Um, and so just being, yeah. Thinking about their physical safety first before they do any, leaving or changing passwords or confronting the partner about like, hey, you've been controlling me.

Lisa: Gotcha.

Merideth: Just know that that's, that can be very physically risky and so taking steps to hopefully stay safe and mitigate the risk there. And, and two, you know, if, if they can recognize, well, yeah, I've been financially abused and I can recognize that I've also been being physically abused, then to me that is a... the point at which you need a team to help you get out. And so, contacting a, um, domestic abuse shelter. Getting a team to help you like that has done this with, you know, thousands of people, help them develop a very specific plan. I think it's super important. It can feel overwhelming because–

Lisa: Mm-hmm–

Merideth: It is an unsafe situation, but, uh, it can also be super empowering to have that team there walking you through it, you know, they've helped tons of people do it before they can help you. Um, I think that's incredibly important to do as well.

Lisa: So, the idea of getting yourself safe first.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um, and then sort of dealing with the ram, the repercussions of all of that, um mm-hmm. Financial stuff and getting that sorted out. Um–.

Merideth: Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa: Is there anything that you would recommend, um, that, that we might need to do? Before getting ourselves safe, while we're still in the relationship to kind of set ourselves up for more success in the leaving?

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um, that kind of, not tipping off the partner sort of a thing.

Merideth: Yeah, yeah. You know, I think from a, a financial, um, from a financial standpoint, I think the, I, I'm hoping I'm remembering the numbers right here that the average survivor has access to, I think like, between $400 and $700 that they leave a relationship with, which does not get you very far.

Lisa: Right.

Merideth: But starting to have something. Um, and so, you know, sometimes that, you know, if they have a debit card and they can, they use that at the grocery store, getting cash back each time, slashing away that, that cash.

Lisa: That's a great idea.

Merideth: Um, so then it just says, you know, Safeway instead of something else. And one of the, um, individuals I work with when I was, um, on the board of FinAbility talked about how, um, they would, um, pay their, I think, give a check to their, um, a person who cut their hair and pay them double.

Lisa: Oh, wow!

Merideth: And then the hairdresser would give them you know, 50% of it back in cash.

Lisa: Wow.

Merideth: And she would do the same thing with like, she had, they had a housekeeper, her husband was a doctor, you know, he had access to plenty of money, and I guess he would give her some for the housekeeper or she could write a check.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: And then the housekeeper would, would give her half back.

Lisa: Wow.

Merideth: And um, I thought this was brilliant. She would put cash in, like a double, double Ziplock bag.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: And hide it in the tank of the toilet.

Lisa: Oh, that's brilliant.

Merideth: Because, you know, a lot of times that's, you know, that can be a very dangerous tipping point is when–.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: The other partner, the abusive partner goes, oh crap, like. My partner is getting ready to leave.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And so, you wanna, you want everything to kind of be, seem like status quo. You don't want any blip that indicates–.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: Maybe you're ready, you're, you're preparing to end the relationship.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Um, sometimes I think people also, uh, want another option is to use like a friend's account to kind of squirrel away small amounts that aren't tied to like a traditional–.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: Account that they're sharing.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: Um–

Lisa: Or even to give–

Merideth: There are a lot of ways there–

Lisa: Give that cash to a friend maybe.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: As well.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: If you don't feel safe hiding it in your space.

Merideth: Right. Yep.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Absolutely. Yeah.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: But you know, there are, there are also plenty of, um, people who are in intensely abusive relationships, who in many ways don't have access or the freedom to leave the house.

Lisa: Mm.

Merideth: That's one thing that just stunned me to learn about is like, you know, there was one car. And abusive partner always had the car and was always at work, and so– You know, you, uh, people and I think especially women can be really creative when it comes to like, okay, I'm getting, getting out of this.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: How can I go about it? Um–

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: So, yeah. Yep.

Lisa: Great. Now are there, pardon me? In terms of that, are there tools, um, accounts, documentation?

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: I know you talked about taking photos of bank statements or–

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Tax statements, things like that. Are there things that, that women should–

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Try to take with them to secure, to take with them if, when they are leaving?

Merideth: Yes. Great question. So, I recommend, um, getting, um, pictures of birth certificates for themselves, any children.

Lisa: Oh, nice.

Merideth: Social security cards. Um, if they can get like, the last couple of years of their tax returns.

Lisa: Nice.

] Merideth: Um. Maybe upload those to like a password protective cloud drive or putting them somewhere, maybe it's emailing them themselves to a private account or a private, um, email account. So, getting those things that they will need to, you know, one, especially in this day and age, prove who they are. You know that they have citizenship if they do.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And, um, because again... It's about power and control. And so, if the abusive partner has control of all those things and she's left with nothing like

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Infinitely harder.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And then two, um, freezing your credit so that the abuser can't open new accounts in your name.

Lisa: Oh.

Merideth: That may also be, um, risky if they are still in the home with the abuser.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: But as soon as they can get out. Like doing that. Um, I frankly, I didn't know that was a thing until like four or five years ago that you could like freeze your credit so nothing can, can open.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: But you know.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Um, in addition to lashing out physically, when especially a male partner learns, the relationship is coming to an end, anything to control, destroy, um, the other party, they're gonna go after it. And so, um, freezing that credit so they're not having to dig themselves out of a super low credit rating for–

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: You know, X years after they're out of the relationship.

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. Um, great, great. And you know, as they're getting out of that relationship, as they're preparing to leave, I remember, um, uh, Tiffiny Newton in our last episode talked about, um, the change that can happen in ourselves, just in our, in our posture, just in our energy, in the way that we interact with the world and our partner when we are feeling like we are becoming more empowered.

Merideth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um, when we are feeling like we're ready to make that change or we are taking those steps surreptitiously to squirrel that money away or get those documents in place to leave, um. I don't know. That just struck me, uh, in terms of, of that. And, and I guess, I mean, I like, I don't know what, I don't know what can be done about that. Right? Because that's just sort of innate in who we are and when we start to feel empowered

Merideth: Mm.

Lisa: Um, even those shifts just happen in us, but–

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um, I don't know if there's anything that can be done about that. Yeah.

Merideth: You know, I, um, I think when you're in the throws, and especially if you've been in it over a long time, time of being in a controlling relationship, your, your purview, your perspective on the world is so narrow because you've been told like, you're not good at this, you can't do that. Like, it just seems like your options are almost non-existent. Um, and I can say, um, you know, I left a... an unhealthy relationship, um, a number of years ago and I realized a few days after, um, that partner at the time moved out. I was sitting at a, a, a light in my, in the car at... at a red light, and I realized, oh my gosh, like I could breathe more deeply than I had breathed, and I don't know how many long, how long.

Lisa: My gosh.

Merideth: And I just realized like, my shoulders, I felt like I think of it now is like, you know, the weight of that partner, however much he weighed was like off.

Lisa: Right. Right.

Merideth: And so, yeah, that it's, um, you know, I think communicating from people who have been there saying like, hey, get out of an unhealthy relationship. You will. It changes your brain; it changes your body.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah.

Merideth: And you do walk taller and you walk more confidently.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And, and you know, you throw those shoulders back and–.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Plant those feet and. And that mind-body connect is so, um, so important and powerful.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And I think really helping people channel that. I bet you can do that in your, or you do... do that in your classes?

Lisa: Absolutely. Yeah. They, they, uh, it's one of the reasons I love to teach is because I get to watch women walk out the door differently than they walked in. You know, when they start to feel that sense of control, of having a little bit more control or a little bit more power over their safety and their circumstance. Yeah.

Merideth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lisa: I think the dangerous thing is when, if an abusive partner starts to notice that.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Right?

Merideth: Yeah, yeah. For sure.

Lisa: Um, and starts to get a sense of that. So, I think that's so important then that we are prepared, um, and that we do prepare before.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: We make that move. Um–

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: So that we lessen that that time. Yeah.

Merideth: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Lisa: Um. Are there some resource– you talked about FinAbility. Um, are there other resources that maybe women aren't, aren't necessarily aware of that can be helpful?

Merideth: Sure. I, um, credit unions often are a bet. Good place to go for support, um–.

Lisa: Okay.

Merideth: In the financial realm because they tend to be more community oriented and willing to work with victims of, especially like coerced debt, than like going to a Chase or a Wells Fargo or, you know, a, a massive bank. So, more community oriented.

Lisa: Gotcha.

Merideth: Um, so credit unions I think could be a great place to start.

Lisa: Great.

Merideth: Um, you know, their FinAbility is one they do it for, um. They offer one-on-one financial counseling, counseling for those who are Oregon re... uh... residents. Um, but there are various organizations that can offer, you know, psychological support for kind of the... the tactical financial planning for survivors. And I, you know, I think one great place to start is a local, um, domestic abuse organization.

Lisa: Okay.

Merideth: Right now, I'm splitting my time between California, where my partner is working in the Bay Area and Utah, where I'm a professor. And, um, in a town that I live in when I'm there, there's a group called CAPSA and darn it, I'm gonna forget exactly what, what it stands for. Um, but it's focused on helping people leave abusive relationships. And, and, and those folks are gonna have deep and wide knowledge about how to support a survivor in, in getting out because again–

Lisa: Nice.

Merideth: If they're experiencing financial abuse, there's gonna be some other form of abuse that needs to be taken into account as they prepare to leave.

Lisa: Okay. That's great. And I think, you know, in terms of, um, the last episode that we did was all about how, how we support a loved one that might be in an abusive relationship.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: And so, I would say just on that front too, if someone we know or love, if we suspect that, that that is the situation they're being financially, um, abused–

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Um, that maybe we can kind of look, uh, at those resources as well and just have that information ready for them.

Merideth: Absolutely.

Lisa: That they can, you know, here's, here's a number, call this number so that they don't have to do the work of trying to figure out how to find that information, if maybe especially their phone or their devices are being monitored.

Merideth: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Lisa: Um, that sort of stuff as well.

Merideth: Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Lisa: Yeah. And on that front, are there specific things that we family or friends should kinda look for if we suspect that someone we love or know is, is being financially controlled?

Merideth: Mm-hmm. Yes. I, you know, I, to me, the, the thing that perks up my ears is when I hear somebody say that they have to like, check with the partner to make sure it's okay before they spend money or they have to get permission, especially for something that seems relatively small.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: Um, and I would say in particular for people who. Like that's... that's, that's new for them.

Lisa: Okay.

Merideth: Previously, they were very independent. They spent money as they needed to. But when you start hearing verbiage, like they have to check with a partner or if they have to see if they have the budget, you know, for, you know, a $15 lunch outing with a friend, like, to me, that's, that raises my radar like, Hmm, what's going on here?

Lisa: M'kay.

Merideth: And, and I think to, um, one way they can kind of help is to, you know, offer to pay for things directly or give gifts that might be resources that the, um, survivor can use, like a prepaid phone card or a gift card for gas. Like things like that that kind of. They can use as a resource that flies hopefully under the radar of the abusive partner.

Lisa: Nice. Nice.

Merideth: And giving things like that can be helpful. Just like very practically helpful.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. That's great. That's great. So, because, you know, this isn't talked about as much as it should be. I think. Um, I'm, again, I'm so grateful for your time and to have this conversation, um, where we can put, put voice to these issues.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: What, in terms of how society handles financial abuse–.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: And sort of the mentality around that are... are there changes that you would like to see?

Merideth: Hmm. Oh, this... this is a great question. I would... I think for our society as a whole, because one in three women experience domestic violence, and I believe the statistic right now for men is one in seven that each bank should have kind of like domestic violence protocols that allows victims to like separate joint accounts without requiring maybe both signatures and high- risk cases.

Lisa: Mm.

Merideth: Um, and so, you know, I think their banking reform is, is one, one way, and two, you know, some lots of people can be absolutely ruined financially for years because of coerced debt. And so, legislation around allowing survivors to clear that debt that was taken out under duress or without their knowledge or by identity theft?

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: I came in contact with a number of people in my work with FinAbility that experienced that, and it is, from what they shared, it seems like it is next to impossible to get that debt removed from their name. They're just, they're stuck with it. And so, they're paying it back. And I, frankly, I can't imagine making payments on a debt that I didn't take out, but an abusive partner did for months and months, like every month. That would be so bad for that survivor's mental and physical wellbeing.

Lisa: Right.

Merideth: And so, doing something about coerced debt, I think is... could be supremely impactful.

Lisa: Because that's just a continuation of the abuse. Right?

Merideth: Right. Yes!

Lisa: You still feel like you're being abused when you're doing that?

Merideth: Yes.

Merideth: Absolutely.

Merideth: Yeah. So, we know a lot of abusers, uh, or, uh, survivors experience. This is also new to me working with FinAbility, legal abuse. And so it's even after the divorce is, is done, you know, the abuser creates problems with the children and, um, parental alienation, or I have a, a friend, her hus– her ex-husband, has called the cops on her for like, stupid crap that nobody would call the cops on just to like make her life difficult.

Lisa: Wow.

Merideth: And so, you know, things like that, that, um, yes, being aware that just because they leave doesn't mean the abuse actually stopped. It's just, and to me, infuriating, but yeah. Um, it is part of the situation.

Lisa: It's all infuriating. Yeah. Unfortunately.

Merideth: Yes. Yes. It's, but like you think, you, you, you like, oh, I'm out, I'm done.

Merideth: And you're like, oh, crap, I'm not.

Lisa: Yep. Yeah.

Merideth: Yeah, yeah.

Lisa: So lastly, I think, um, I'd just love to hear.... use.... talk about something that you wish women did understand about money and personal safety.

Merideth: Mm.

Lisa: You know, if someone's feeling stuck right now, what? What would you want them to hear or understand?

Merideth: Mm mmm. I think the first thing I would want them to hear and like really internalize, is you're not bad with money.

Lisa: Mm.

Merideth: You have just been denied the tools and the access to manage it.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Merideth: And your current situation is not a personal failure; it's a strategic limitation.

Lisa: Mm.

Merideth: That you didn't necessarily choose. When I went through my divorce, my mantra to myself when, when things were, were difficult and frustrating, was peace and freedom. Peace and freedom. That's what I would say, like out loud to myself. Cause that's what I was working towards. And so, recognizing that, that peace and freedom is built $1 at a time. It's not gonna come in like big ocean wave rush.

Lisa: Right?

Merideth: Because you're gonna have to take steps after you're out of the relationship to rebuild that trust with yourself.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And that self-trust, like, oh, I can make, I can make financial decisions, I can manage my monthly budget, you know, to rebuild that, just unfortunately it doesn't come back, um, all at once. It comes back, I think about it as $1 at a time.

Lisa: I love that. $1 at a time. Yeah.

Merideth: $1 at a time.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And so, and that they don't have to go through it alone. Like there are more, um, I think organizations and people out there, um, that are willing to help and kind of, I, I think about it, just hold helping. Or holding a flashlight while we find our way out of like this murky, dark hole that we are finding ourselves in.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And so, um–

Lisa: And that we don't dig for ourselves that somebody else dug for us–

Merideth: Right?

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Yes, exactly.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: Yes.

Lisa: Yeah.

Merideth: And so, taking back that power, $1 at a time, I think is deeply, um, impactful just for how we think about ourselves and how we see our potential or our future self.

Lisa: Yeah. That's really powerful.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Uh, Merideth, Dr. Thompson, uh, thank you so much for sharing all of that with us. Um. We could, there's so much more here to unpack, I think. But, um, maybe we can talk again. Um.

Merideth: I'd love that.

Lisa: Excellent. But this has been fantastic. Um, thank you so much for your expertise. Thank you so much for the great work that you do, uh, around this subject matter and for, um, you know, the, the steps I know that you take to help empower women and help get them out of these relationships and.

Merideth: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: Congratulations on your, your own journey.

Merideth: Thank you.

Lisa: Um, and coming into a... a healthy, beautiful relationship. Um. Love that. I want that for all of us. Yes. That's fantastic.

Merideth: Absolutely same.

Lisa: So, thank you so much for being here today. We're so grateful for you.

Merideth: Oh, thank you Lisa. This has been a treat.

Kellie: Wow, Lisa, that was such a great conversation with Merideth and I'm really grateful we covered this topic.

Lisa: Me too. You know, her insights and her ability to just make all of that super accessible and like actionable for folks was just amazing. Um, and... I'm gonna say, I think what hit me the most during that conversation is like how quiet financial abuse can be, right? Like. It doesn't always look dramatic from the outside. It's like Merideth said, you know, you can't see the bruises of that. Um, but my God, it can absolutely change the shape of someone's life.

Kellie: Yes, absolutely. And I just wanna say, if anything in this episode made you pause, listeners. If you felt that little internal, "Wait! Uhuh, uh oh, no!" Please take that seriously. You're not being dramatic. You're not being bad with money; you might just be noticing a pattern that you need to pay attention to.

Lisa: Yeah. And you, and like, you don't have to figure it out all today. Right. Um, sometimes the first step to it is just naming it. Um, or even just letting yourself consider like, "Hey, this doesn't feel okay." Or maybe I'm seeing this happen to someone I love or know, and it doesn't seem okay to them either. So, just a reminder, our show notes are here for you. We will include resources. If you're not sure what to do next, just take one small step, save the resources, write down what resonated, um, you know, especially before you go away from this episode and life gets in the way and we forget, um, if something sort of, um, piqued you today. If something resonated with you, just write that down somewhere safe, somewhere private, um, so that you can kind of, uh, as you process, you can kind of go back to that. Um, and another option is if you have a trusted person in your life, a girlfriend, a family member, what have you, that you just kind of wanna talk to about it, and say like, "Hey, I, I listened to this episode, like I think that something is resonating with me on this. Can, can we talk about this?" Um, that's a really great thing to do as well. So, you get somebody else invested too. Um, you know, just one step is still movement and still action. So don't think you. Just name it.

Kellie: Yes, name it, name it, name it. And, listeners, if you have a story you want to share or a topic you want us to cover, please, please reach out. We read your messages and they really do shape what we do here. Message us at DiamondDefense.com. Email us at DiamondDefensePodcast@gmail.com or DM us on Instagram at DiamondDefense1. That's the numeral one. And please reach out because we really do believe that storytelling is a first line of self-defense.

Lisa: That's right. And your story matters. And even if you don't have a particular story that you wanna share, I mean, we get messages from people saying, hey, I don't wanna share anything. But like, I really would love it if you cover this specific topic, um, that has helped shape us and how this podcast gets made and what we do cover and what we do talk about. Um, so, yeah. Reach out. We'd love to hear from you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for taking care of yourself as you listen. We're gonna be back with you real soon and until then–.

Kellie: Watch out for motherfuckers.

Lisa: And shine on, Diamonds.

Theme Music: I am a fighter. Checking my armor. I'm marching onward. Hey Hey. I am a fighter, storming the desert…



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Kellie

Co-host
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Lisa

Co-host